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An_Maonaigh: Great, welcome everybody. Today is Wednesday, the 22nd of April. It is 15.13 Dublin time. Dublin mushroom time, where you turn up whatever you want.

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An_Maonaigh: And, I want to check in with great joy, at our session today. As a result of our dialogue a couple of weeks ago, I have tried some tools, mainly in Google and Notebook LM,

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An_Maonaigh: to help me work with content that begins as static, but then it needs to move and be more dynamic, so I'm very excited about that.

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An_Maonaigh: And, looking forward to Chris Cook joining today. Chris and I have been working together for about a year.

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An_Maonaigh: And and it was interesting, Josh, that you were the one who said that Olis suggested that we invite him.

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An_Maonaigh: That's an AI.

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An_Maonaigh: Giving us a suggestion which we followed. How interesting is that?

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An_Maonaigh: Because Olus is my AI, and when I did the summary, it said, you should be including Chris Cook into this conversation, so thank you for doing that, he's on his way. So, blessings to everybody. Josh, how are you today in Lima, Peru?

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Josh Sidman: I'm good.

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Josh Sidman: We're just,

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Josh Sidman: winding down summer. It's getting gray and overcast, and it will be that way for the next… Several months.

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Josh Sidman: Yeah,

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Josh Sidman: I'm confused as to why we're not all here at the moment. Like I mentioned before, you hit the record button, and my suspicion is that

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Josh Sidman: Some people will be showing up in 45 minutes, which will be an hour after what you and I thought was the correct start time.

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Josh Sidman: So, I don't know how much we want to… Dive into… Now, before they show up.

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Josh Sidman: And it's kind of funny, because this is what we're here to talk about, is how we deal with

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Josh Sidman: asynchronicity.

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Josh Sidman: in… in terms of conversations. So, if we had…

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Josh Sidman: If we were in the future and had this all doped out, maybe what we're dealing with right now would not be an issue.

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Josh Sidman: Because we would just…

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Josh Sidman: have the base, you know, the foundation layer conversation among the three of us who are here at the moment, and then it would turn into the…

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Josh Sidman: Foundation for an ongoing conversation, and maybe… maybe it doesn't matter so much who was there

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Josh Sidman: At… at the… at the moment of… Recording the foundation.

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An_Maonaigh: Mmm, beautiful observation. We are the fractal.

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An_Maonaigh: Of that which we wish to create.

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Gyuri: Yeah, exactly, exactly.

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An_Maonaigh: Well, Gary, how are you?

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Gyuri: Yeah. Well, I'm really grateful, because I feel like, like I was in 2019,

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Gyuri: I work for HubScience, a little startup in Hungary, and they really like what I do, and I work for them, and they wanted to buy it, but…

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Gyuri: But they found is, oh, no, no, you can't… you can't just… you can't just rent it from this guy. Either he can own it or not, so that was the end of it. But, and at that time, we had two weekly… two weekly sprint meetings, you know.

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Gyuri: So just, I went, you know, I work from home. Every Thursday afternoon around this time, I tuned in, and we spent two, three hours talking, so I really feel like I'm back in that startup world, you know.

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Gyuri: Which is… which is lovely to have. And, I nearly got it all set up for you to do that… to do this kind of integration of,

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Gyuri: Synchronous and asynchronous, because you need both, basically.

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Gyuri: But my machine is hardly, hardly operable, because there's got too many windows, windows up on both of my machines, but I hope next week I can actually show you how you could actually start working like that.

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Gyuri: Yeah.

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An_Maonaigh: You are whetting our appetite, brother! Wawa, wow!

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An_Maonaigh: Looking forward to that.

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An_Maonaigh: And, Chris Cook has entered the room.

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Chris Cook: Hello, guys.

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An_Maonaigh: Lovely to see you, Chris. How are you today?

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Chris Cook: Late.

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An_Maonaigh: Well, this is… that's a… that's a perception. You said you'd be here at 15, 15, and here you are.

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Chris Cook: Yeah. Well, it's better… better not late as in dead, isn't it? So, there we go.

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An_Maonaigh: So, we were just checking in, and what I'll do, Chris, for the recording is just get the other guys to introduce themselves and the context by which we're here, and then you can check in. Is that okay?

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Chris Cook: Sure.

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An_Maonaigh: Yeah, so I'll start. So Josh and I met in a group called Monetary Diversity, which is a group of people who are doing different things.

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An_Maonaigh: We noticed, he and I,

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An_Maonaigh: That, for all of the time we spent together, 2 hours, we spent most of the time messing around in the Miro board, and we didn't really connect.

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An_Maonaigh: So I set up a call then with Josh, and I said, I love what you're doing with Silvio Gazelle's work, how can we, how can we follow on with that?

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An_Maonaigh: And, as a result of that dialogue, Josh said, you know what?

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An_Maonaigh: I have an issue where I'm doing these podcasts, but I've no way to really turn them into dynamic dialogues. Do you know something we might do? And we immediately brought in Gyuri, who's in Holland, and we brought in Guillen, who's in South Africa, and then we brought in Michael.

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Gyuri: Goody.

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An_Maonaigh: Hungary. What did I say? Holland?

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Gyuri: Hold on.

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An_Maonaigh: Sorry, I have Rainier on my mind, sorry. So, Gary is in the Free State of Hungary, the European Free State of Hungary.

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Gyuri: post-European, hopefully.

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An_Maonaigh: Oh, that's good. Oh my god, bring back the… bring back the, the Kaiser. What?

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An_Maonaigh: So, yeah, Guri has been working on annotation for some time, and he's been working on IPFS, Interplanetary File System, so Guri wants to build something. Then we had Michael Meehan, who was here for a bit, he's doing a bit of tech, and then we had Cameron, who's doing a bit of tech.

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An_Maonaigh: So, we meet every two weeks, just to catch up, and see if we can produce, an MVP, a Minimum Viable Product.

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An_Maonaigh: that Josh can then put out when he does the second series of Economics 2.0, which is what he's teaching as part of Henry George. So that's the context under which we come. So, if Josh and Guri can give, kind of an intro and a background, and then Chris can check in

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An_Maonaigh: Minimum workable, you're right, yeah, an MWB, I prefer that.

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Gyuri: Because we're not into… we are not lean startup, we're not interested in, in finding quickly out what the market wants.

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Gyuri: We know that we want this for all, forever, you know. I love it. It's not the question, is it needed? Can we deliver. That's the real question.

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An_Maonaigh: Beautiful. So, while you have the microphone off, say hello to Chris. I don't know if you've met before.

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Gyuri: No, hello, hello.

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Chris Cook: Hi, I don't think we have met.

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Gyuri: No, no, no.

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An_Maonaigh: A bit about what you're doing.

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Gyuri: Riley, Chad.

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Gyuri: I've been… I've been on this… on this journey for nearly 20… 22 years. It all started with a DTI-supported feasibility study for personalized mobile computing. So I've been doing mobile computing in 2003,

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Gyuri: And with the hidden agenda that I… and this is how it worked, that I wanted to make this mobile computing, web computing, laptop computing with just one thing, you know, so you… so, you know, all this… all this… and from the… from the outset, the goal was it's really making

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Gyuri: going from personal computing, or mobile computing, into interpersonal computing. So that's really the journey.

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Gyuri: A little bit of, I don't know whether you're aware of Engelbard's work.

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Gyuri: Chris, have you heard of Engelbar, Doug Engelbar?

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Chris Cook: Nope.

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An_Maonaigh: Can you put it in the chat?

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Gyuri: Yeah.

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An_Maonaigh: We got his name right.

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Gyuri: Just one sentence that he… he wrote in 1960. He wrote a proposal, which eventually got funded and everything, and his goal was just the one sentence, which is only on the abstract, which is never distributed.

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Gyuri: He wanted… his goal was to…

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Gyuri: augment the intellectual capability of the individual human being.

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Gyuri: And I am doing it in a collaborative setting.

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Gyuri: So he's… he's invented the Mars, and the whole, whole computing that we do, this, Mars-driven thing, because he invented the Mars, but that's not the most important thing.

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Gyuri: And about and his team, they really created the modern computing, what we have now, and they actually had to do everything in 68.

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Gyuri: Video conferencing, collaborative writing. In fact, they have collaborative writing where each one had its own maps.

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Gyuri: Okay, so you could have mouse fighting. Anyhow, so Engabart is really… I've been doing Engabart work before I discovered that he existed. In fact, just lastly, in my PhD, I reinvented

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Gyuri: the meta-language Meta System, they called it, or whatever they called it, and it got classified, so 20 years later, I could rediscover it.

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Gyuri: reinvented, basically. Because the same logic is there, so…

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Gyuri: So I've been on this long, long journey, and hopefully the technology is catching up with us, interplanetary file system, and all these new protocols, and a new web can be built. And I'm not the only one working on it, lots of people trying to do this.

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Gyuri: So people see this opportunity that instead of a decentralized web, decentralized web is not enough.

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Gyuri: It's decent enough, it's a nice shift, it's a paradigm shift, but we really need to flip the paradigm, so it's got to be people-centered.

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Gyuri: And, so that's what I'm doing, yeah, thank you.

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An_Maonaigh: And, Josh, couple of minutes for you to,

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An_Maonaigh: to get Chris some context, and then we bring in Chris.

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Josh Sidman: Sure. Chris, nice to meet you.

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Josh Sidman: I'm currently located in Lima, Peru, but I'm originally from New York.

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Josh Sidman: I guess I'll start…

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Josh Sidman: my little narrative in 2007, where I had already had a brief career on Wall Street,

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Josh Sidman: Found that that world was not for me.

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Josh Sidman: but… and had gone on to other things, music, actually. And around that time, I happened to be reading Keynes, and in Keynes's…

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Josh Sidman: main book, The General Theory, he spent 5 pages talking about this guy, Silvio Gassel, who I had never heard of before. And it was an… it was interesting enough that I wanted to learn more.

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Josh Sidman: And so I tried to get a copy of his book.

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Josh Sidman: which is called the Natural Economic Order. And the first clue about how off the beaten track that

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Josh Sidman: would eventually take me was that the book was not even in print in English. I had to track down a retired library copy from the 1950s, and… and I finally got it, and I read it, and it immediately spoke to me and made sense.

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Josh Sidman: In terms of… In terms of describing why the…

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Josh Sidman: dream of the free market, which is… Which is individuals

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Josh Sidman: Being made free to employ their Their creativity, their initiative, 2…

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Josh Sidman: Pursue their own self-interest, and thereby Benefiting society in the process.

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Josh Sidman: That's a, to me, a beautiful idea.

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Josh Sidman: But it is not… it doesn't match up with what I saw

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Josh Sidman: You know, working in the world of finance and economics, where where…

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Josh Sidman: People are not benefiting society by pursuing their own self-interest.

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Josh Sidman: And Giselle made sense of it in a way that I had never seen before, but that spoke to me immediately.

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Josh Sidman: as being… true, self-evident. And I spent about the next 13 or 14 years,

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Josh Sidman: Talking about these ideas to anyone who would listen, writing about them, trying to find someone to explain to me why nobody knows about this guy.

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Josh Sidman: Is his analysis wrong? I assumed it was probably wrong at… for the first several years, because if it wasn't wrong, it didn't make sense that nobody knew about him. So I was kind of looking for somebody to explain to me what was wrong with it for quite a while.

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Josh Sidman: And that never happened.

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Josh Sidman: And about 4 or 5 years ago, I finally connected with a network of people in other countries who

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Josh Sidman: who are working on advocating for Gassels.

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Josh Sidman: ideas, specifically in Argentina and in Germany, there are organizations that

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Josh Sidman: that are dedicated to promoting his ideas. And as an English speaker, I started helping those groups do outreach in the English-speaking world. And through that process, became

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Josh Sidman: It became clear to me that there needed to be

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Josh Sidman: an entity in the English-speaking world that is doing what these folks are doing in the Spanish and German-speaking worlds.

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Josh Sidman: So… maybe 3 years ago, I created the Silvio Gassell Foundation, built a website, And almost immediately.

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Josh Sidman: interesting things started coming my way, including an invitation from the Henry George School to give a course on… a virtual course on Silvio Gassel, and I did that

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Josh Sidman: close to 2 years ago now. It's… it's now available on… on YouTube. And that gave birth to…

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Josh Sidman: a podcast, which we called Economy 2.0. Which was intended to be… a… An arena in which

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Josh Sidman: People like myself, who are advocating for specific alternative models to the economic status quo, can come together and

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Josh Sidman: And have dialogue, and potentially

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Josh Sidman: collaborate, or at least to be aware of each other's… of each other's existence. Because what became clear to me in the process of advocating for a specific point of view, a specific alternative,

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Josh Sidman: model is that there are a lot of people who are doing the same with their own

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Josh Sidman: preferred alternative models, but they're not talking to each other, for the most part. They're kind of operating in… in their own bubbles.

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Josh Sidman: And it's quite challenging

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Josh Sidman: to connect those bubbles, because each… each one is very heavily invested in a very… in a specific point of view. And when somebody else comes along and says, well, no.

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Josh Sidman: Do it this way, not your way.

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Josh Sidman: they are… they're challenging, you know, that person's whole identity, in a sense.

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Josh Sidman: And… and it's… it's… it's very unlikely that those…

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Josh Sidman: Two things, those two bubbles, are going to come together in a fruitful way.

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Josh Sidman: So I felt that there needed to be an arena for dialogue, and that was the purpose of the first season of Economy 2.0, which was, I think… I think we did 20 episodes, each one

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Josh Sidman: I had an invited… an invited guest who had some perspective on what

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Josh Sidman: an alternative economic future might look like. And it was a conversation between myself and that guest with an audience. The audience was invited to participate.

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Josh Sidman: And it was a very good series of conversations. It kind of ran its course, and we decided not to continue in that format.

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Josh Sidman: but I made, so many…

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Josh Sidman: really promising connections, which this conversation grew out of. I connected with Nicholas Franca, who was the organizer of the Monetary Diversity.

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Chris Cook: Yep.

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Josh Sidman: organization that… that Paul and I connected through, and…

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Josh Sidman: It's clear to me that this is,

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Josh Sidman: a fertile soil that deserves to be cultivated.

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Josh Sidman: And the question is how to do that. And…

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Josh Sidman: I'm gonna try to wrap this up, because I've already gone on at length, but, to bring us up to the moment.

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Josh Sidman: I've… I personally want to initiate Two or three interrelated conversations.

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Josh Sidman: But I have been holding off on starting them.

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Josh Sidman: Because I feel the lack of… a communications…

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Josh Sidman: paradigm that is adequate to the conversations that I want to have.

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Josh Sidman: a YouTube video of a conversation, is… is nice.

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Josh Sidman: It's a good way of sharing

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Josh Sidman: A conversation, but it does not…

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Josh Sidman: It does not include all of the people who view it after the fact, and might have something to contribute to the conversation.

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Josh Sidman: And that's… And that is related to another Challenge, which is…

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Josh Sidman: time zones. All of us are in different parts of the world, and a bunch of our potential collaborators are in other time zones, and it's virtually impossible to get everyone you want

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Josh Sidman: Together, at one time.

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Josh Sidman: In order to have a really inclusive conversation.

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Josh Sidman: So the idea of how to conduct what I call an asynchronous meeting is what

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Josh Sidman: I think this conversation is primarily about how could we have…

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Josh Sidman: something that resembles a YouTube video, but is more inclusive and more interactive, so that

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Josh Sidman: For someone else who couldn't be there during the recording, but is an important

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Josh Sidman: participant, or potential participant, how can that person be included in the conversation in a full way, rather than, you know, looking at a YouTube video and maybe typing in a YouTube comment their input?

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Josh Sidman: So, so the idea that we have been discussing for a couple of weeks now is whether we could create

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Josh Sidman: A format where there is a video recording, and that's the base layer of an ongoing conversation.

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Josh Sidman: That other people can then come into at their leisure, and go through and participate

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Josh Sidman: exactly when and how they want to. So, for example, you might have a 2-hour recording, and at minute 37, there's a specific topic being discussed that you, Chris, want to

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Josh Sidman: want to…

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Josh Sidman: give some input about, but you weren't there. You can go in at minute 37, you can…

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Josh Sidman: insert your input in whatever format you're comfortable with. It could be text, it could be audio, it could be video, and you…

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Josh Sidman: let's say you choose video. You record, yourself responding to the point, and you insert it into the original recording. It becomes part of

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Josh Sidman: the… The ongoing asynchronous meeting.

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Josh Sidman: So, yeah, I guess I'll leave it there.

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Josh Sidman: this… this… Architecture for a new kind of

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Josh Sidman: inclusive, asynchronous conversation is what I want to have

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Josh Sidman: available to me before I initiate these

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Josh Sidman: conversations which are very important to me, but that I don't want to start

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Josh Sidman: in the form of a YouTube video, or a traditional Zoom meeting.

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Josh Sidman: So, yeah, that's what we've been working on.

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Chris Cook: Hmm.

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Chris Cook: Fascinating.

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An_Maonaigh: Oh, Chris, if you can introduce yourselves to the other brothers, and then we can open up some space for this,

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An_Maonaigh: Does percolation…

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Chris Cook: Yeah, just, like, a quick response to what I just heard about

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Chris Cook: annotations, I mean, I've immediately struck my…

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Chris Cook: Twitter, which I insist on calling it, and the community notes.

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Chris Cook: As a response to a tweet. Anyway, about me, yeah, oof.

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Chris Cook: Jack of all trades and master of none, really. Started out in the UK in insolvency. That was my first job in insolvency, working for the Department of Trade. So, forensic accounting.

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Chris Cook: was part of it, finding out where people went bust, prosecuting miscreants, which you occasionally have. From there, I went to

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Chris Cook: Again, in the DTI, more forensic accounting, but this time, potentially criminal company fraud investigation branch at the DTI in London. That took me in the mid-80s into the City of London, which was just starting to become regulated.

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Chris Cook: And so I joined one of the first regulators in the commodity markets.

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Chris Cook: In 1986, which was a really fascinating time, so I got to learn a great deal about regulation, which was just beginning then. I think of myself as the, if you know your Lord of the Rings, like the Tom Bombadil of regulation. I was there before it even existed, and I'm…

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Chris Cook: I'm still there, in a sense. And, in 1990, I became a director of what's now the biggest global energy exchange, which was not the biggest then, but was growing rapidly. And, and for 6 years, grew with that job, and…

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Chris Cook: Found myself,

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Chris Cook: very, very, very interested in market development from the point of view of making improvements in a way that is consistent with a fair market. And so looking at regulation as quality control rather than business prevention.

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Chris Cook: Which it seems to have become.

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Chris Cook: And I, for instance, designed the UK natural gas futures market. That was my legal design, but it was…

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Chris Cook: As a response to a market in buying and selling molecules of

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Chris Cook: methane, which is stark-staring bonkers, and should be exterminated from the earth. But the point being, the futures contract is a means of actually managing the risk.

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Chris Cook: of commodity trading, and I could talk about the electricity markets since then, et cetera, et cetera. But by 19896, this is sort of getting into the field of view that we're here talking about.

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Chris Cook: I first got exposed to the internet, really, around that time, mid-90s, and the first really interesting,

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Chris Cook: point about it came, when I went to see… I went to a meeting held by…

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Chris Cook: and I… it was to do with the tran… it was to do with how goods, oil in particular, actually transit the world, and it was to do with documents of title.

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Chris Cook: How is it you can actually prove that you own the oil on the ship, for instance? And things called bills of lading. Deeply technical, very few people have ever heard of them, but integral to global trade in commodities. And, and I went to a meeting

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Chris Cook: Looking at electronic.

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Chris Cook: Basically, making electronic, making virtual, these complex

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Chris Cook: paper documents, and it was called, it was called Bolero, Bills of Lading Electronic Registration Organization. And that was my first exposure to, digitizing and digital markets globally, although we were actually then building

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Chris Cook: the world's first Windows-based trading system.

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Chris Cook: at the exchange I was at, we were pretty bloody innovative. And,

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Chris Cook: So I got really interested in that, and its connection to an organization called, the,

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Chris Cook: Protection and Indemnity Club. Who here has heard of a P&I club? Probably very few among you. You have, Paul. I know that. But a protection and indemnity club is basically a global framework for mutual assurance.

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Chris Cook: of risk that the middleman, Lloyds in this case, will not take. 90% of global shipping

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Chris Cook: is mutually assured, and has been for 150 years, for certain risks that the middleman will not cover. So, I was focused then, from that point on, with global mutual agreements.

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Chris Cook: disintermediation, cutting out the middleman, because I immediately, thought then, and then Napster popped up, when a 19-year-old

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Chris Cook: by introducing file sharing made redundant the global business model of the music industry. And that struck me deeply in, I think that was 98.

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Chris Cook: And at that point, I put together a,

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Chris Cook: I put together a dot-com. It was called,

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Chris Cook: the iteration was oil clear, but I called it new clear. It was paperless trade confirmation, okay? Whenever a trade took place internationally, you'd make a phone call, and the minute you put the phone down, you would send a fax or a telex to confirm the transaction you did.

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Chris Cook: legally binding. And I put together a, a project called… and it was Oil Clear, it was the first iteration, and it was very simple, consisted of three things. One was a messaging system.

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Chris Cook: Yahoo Chat was predominant then.

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Chris Cook: Second thing was a shared database. This was 10 years before the blockchain came along and fucked things up. And then, the third thing, and this is the mutual agreement.

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Chris Cook: like the P&I club agreement, was a global club agreement, if you will, that the minute that… when I clicked the mouse to accept the transaction message that you sent to me.

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Chris Cook: And the trade dropped into the database, then we were both legally bound by it.

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Chris Cook: And that… I had…

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Chris Cook: at least two directors from every, you know, from each global exchange put personal money into it. Top venture capitalists put personal money into it. Everybody wanted to own it.

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Chris Cook: If the sell side owned it, the buy side wouldn't use it. That was the problem. And if the buy side owned it, the sell side wouldn't use it. Because what I'd come up with was a global utility for

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Chris Cook: Trade capture, capturing and confirming transactions.

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Chris Cook: And in the end, I found that I couldn't…

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Chris Cook: Surmount that business model problem, of…

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Chris Cook: basically each side of the market, you know, not wanting to, anybody else to own it. And after that, the money ran out, I blew the whistle on what the investment banks were doing in the oil market, inadvertently, lost everything I had, home, family, everything, had to start again from scratch, and rebuilt my life on,

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Chris Cook: You know, from scratch, in a sense. Questioned everything.

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Chris Cook: literally questioned everything. I thought I understood how markets… money markets worked. I realized I didn't. And cutting out about 8 years of time, I was then asked, after the financial crash, which

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Chris Cook: I wasn't the only one who saw it coming. I was asked by the former Minister of defense of the UK, Lord Reed, to become a Senior Research Fellow at the Institute for Strategy, Resilience and Security at UCL.

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Chris Cook: Which was basically set up to look… to look at, well, what does a resilient financial system even look like, and could we create one?

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Chris Cook: And over a period of 15 years, and many, many,

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Chris Cook: very interesting experiences over the… over the period. We think we've actually finally got there.

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Chris Cook: And come up with some ideas, and along the way, I think there is no…

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Chris Cook: strand of economic history, including Giselle, which I haven't looked at, and, and seen, and from my own personal opinion, well, this was valid, this was not, something we all do.

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Chris Cook: And tried to actually analyze and codify and extract lessons, and along the way, I've written down huge amounts. Paul will

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Chris Cook: can speak to that. I sent an email recent… just before this, just with a few links to some of the things that I'd done. So a presentation to… a submission to the… to a parliamentary committee, a peer-to-peer

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Chris Cook: document on FinTech 2.0, but… just quickly.

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Chris Cook: That's all context. I just wanted to make clear my view in relation to market paradigms and economic paradigms. I… I start from the basis that markets, the first iteration of markets, 1.0,

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Chris Cook: was physical presence, when people were physically present, and transacted physically, and maybe gave time to pay to each other, etc, etc. So that market was, and is.

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Chris Cook: Physical market presence, but disconnected from other markets.

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Chris Cook: Over the centuries, what we saw via communications and travel and all the rest of it was reaching the current market paradigm of

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Chris Cook: intermediate markets, middlemen, whatever the form they are. And that market is centralized.

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Chris Cook: But connected. This is Market Paradigm 2.0, the one that I was a director of a global exchange in.

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Chris Cook: And you have all the intermediaries for all the different economic functions. But the one that we're going to, and rapidly.

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Chris Cook: Market 3.0 is not that you're physically present, it's not that you're present through an intermediary, it's that you are present on the network.

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Chris Cook: And everything that I've been about has been, what are the legal agreements, the, what are the services that we can look to, how is that going to work? And it's, as Guri says, it's completely people-centric.

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Chris Cook: completely people-centric, and the end game, I believe, and this so much ties into what you're doing, Yuri, is

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Chris Cook: And I've seen it, this is how I've always seen it, that I will have a device

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Chris Cook: And on that device will be 7 lines of code. Like Stripe, and there's 7 lines of code, but everything else is an API. Everything else

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Chris Cook: That is my little personal operating system, and everything else is protocols.

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Chris Cook: Everything else is protocols. And,

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Chris Cook: You know, depending on the language that you use. That has always been my vision for 30 years. I believe we are approaching the ability to do that, and it's not just about, networks.

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Chris Cook: Networks is not enough. We'd be captured by Amazon Web Services if it were.

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Chris Cook: Broadcast, it's a combination of broadcast data one way.

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Chris Cook: and internet-backed channels and communications the other. And I'm absolutely sure, having worked on this for 30 years, that it's possible to have a completely

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Chris Cook: You know, foolproof, mechanism what is it you call it? Zero knowledge?

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Chris Cook: completely possible with these elements constructed in the right way. So, it's a pleasure and a privilege to be talking to the people that you've brought to this space, Paul. I know you don't… you work to… you use your instinct with these things, and I'm following it,

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Chris Cook: As best I can. And thanks for bearing with me for so long.

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An_Maonaigh: I personally would follow you anywhere, you're… I keep calling you the prophet, so you're my prophet.

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An_Maonaigh: So, welcoming, tune fan Sambik, welcome!

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Josh Sidman: Can I briefly introduce Toyne, and then… and then he can introduce himself?

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Josh Sidman: So, Toyne is one of the many fruitful connections that I made through the Economy 2.0 series. He was a guest on an episode. He… I don't even remember how we first connected, but he essentially arrived at

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Josh Sidman: some of the same conclusions and ideas that Silvio Gassel did independently of Silvio Gassel, and was, had already created and was advocating for this

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Josh Sidman: alternative monetary model that he can tell us about.

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Josh Sidman: And, he's very, digitally savvy. I am not. I think, Chris and Yuri, you guys sound like you are… Not particularly.

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Chris Cook: really, Josh.

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Chris Cook: I know enough to know what I don't know.

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Josh Sidman: Right, well, I don't even know that.

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Josh Sidman: But Toyne… Toyne is one of those

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Josh Sidman: I would describe him as a visionary who

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Josh Sidman: up until recently, has kind of been operating in a bubble, like all of the other visionaries. And…

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Josh Sidman: And as soon as we started communicating, it was clear to me that we were…

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Josh Sidman: kindred spirits, so to speak, that we, shared a lot of common values and ideas, and that we needed to be in communication with each other. So, Toyne, I'll let you introduce yourself, tell us about

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Josh Sidman: Who you are, what you've done, how you arrive at this, at being part of this conversation.

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teunvansambeek: Yeah, thank you, Josh. Can you all hear me very well?

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Chris Cook: Yep.

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teunvansambeek: Okay, great. Yeah, so, thank you just again for this very nice introduction. I'm Tony von Somberg, but most of the time people call me Tony, because my name is quite difficult to pronounce for most languages. I'm from the Netherlands.

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teunvansambeek: I live in, at the moment in Kigali, in Rwanda.

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teunvansambeek: But I worked all my life in construction, basically, in the Netherlands. I'm a construction engineer, but also, like, an IT…

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teunvansambeek: a self, sort of self-educated IT guy, I was programming before.

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teunvansambeek: Let's say, home computers exist.

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teunvansambeek: on my, Texas, calculator, and, did it ever since, and,

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teunvansambeek: I'm also sort of a mathematician, econometrics. I think my… is that my… my… yeah, my camera is just misbehaving, that's why I logged out, so if it's too bad, then I'll… I'll try to fix that.

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teunvansambeek: But,

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teunvansambeek: So, let's say 15 years ago, I went to Africa to see if I could build a precast concrete factory for affordable housing.

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teunvansambeek: Affordable mass housing.

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teunvansambeek: And, because of that, I studied the market, so what is the income of people, what can they afford, and at what level, let's say, what is the cheapest sort of house that you can build.

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teunvansambeek: If you're using precast, let's say, highly automated precast concrete technology, I work together with some companies in Germany and Italy that have, let's say, a market leader in those technologies.

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teunvansambeek: But then I sort of figured out, and that was, like, 10 years ago, that even if you go down to the…

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teunvansambeek: the cheapest possible price, and then you need to think about, let's say, a two-bedroom apartment with, everything finished, with a parking lot outside. You can build that. In that time, it was, like, $12,000. I think. In the meantime, it's something like $15,000.

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teunvansambeek: So you could build a fully finished apartment.

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teunvansambeek: But for that price, let's say half of the people that are living in Africa are not able to buy it with a mortgage, or even rent it. So even if you can get to the lowest price of something that you can still call a house, that doesn't have a dirt floor.

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teunvansambeek: then, let's say, these people cannot afford it. So, my question then was, is there something wrong with the financial system? Another indicator was, like.

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teunvansambeek: I think the war in Afghanistan costed, I think, $14 trillion.

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teunvansambeek: And, with that amount of money, you could house

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teunvansambeek: forever, for free, without a mortgage, half of the world population. So only this war.

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teunvansambeek: Costed, let's say, so much that you could house half of the population, which means that if you do that, there is no incentive for people to

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teunvansambeek: steal land or anything from the other countries. So, there's no incentive to go to war anyway, because people… sort of… that is the idea of war, that you want to…

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teunvansambeek: get stuff to, to make your, your life sort of worthwhile, and… and get, get a proper house. So, so that, that was sort of my, my, starting, starting point. Okay, I said, okay, something is really bad.

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teunvansambeek: And that was the time that, sort of, Bitcoin broke through, and I quickly knew exactly how it works, because I read the white papers, and I looked at some of the programs, so I know how hashing works, how I know how…

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teunvansambeek: the blockchain works, so I can't program it myself, and I was thinking about creating something that is, sort of…

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teunvansambeek: like a… that was my first idea, to create a sort of universal basic income system based on cryptocurrency technology, where you could solve this, this, this financial, let's say.

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teunvansambeek: I call it… it's like a disruption, it's like the gap. You know, the gap is so immense that something should be done.

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teunvansambeek: So that's… that's when I started to… to… to think about it, write about it, read about it, and

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teunvansambeek: And because of my job, I have, like.

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teunvansambeek: a lot of time, to do this. So, basically, the last 10 years, I spent, like, 80, probably, like, 80 hours a week.

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teunvansambeek: just to investigate this, doing… doing… making ideas, programming, stuff like that, and… and reading about it, and things like that. So,

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teunvansambeek: I came to the conclusion that, let's say, if I… I'm gonna go through that very shortly. I created a system, it's called OneCoin Per Hour.

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teunvansambeek: to… let's say there are a few issues that you want to resolve. It has to do with, with,

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teunvansambeek: Basically, with monopolies, you want to, sort of.

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teunvansambeek: get rid of, I call it four… four monopolies, which two have to do with the creation of money, and the other ones have to do with land and… and with IP rights. These, let's say, four…

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teunvansambeek: For,

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teunvansambeek: let's call them legal system, because it's, like, legal… legally set up. They create scarcity. And to me, scarcity is artificial. So any scarcity that we have in the world is artificial. So.

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teunvansambeek: And that's why my… I wrote a book about it, it's called, Abondomi. It's all… it's,

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teunvansambeek: like, the mirror image of the economy, which is… economy is like the science of scarcity, and I try to focus on, let's say, the science of abundance. So how can we create abundance for everybody? So, and you look at the years, the U.S is big enough to do that.

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teunvansambeek: So,

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teunvansambeek: But obviously, let's say the financial system is the most, let's say, used system to create scarcity, and…

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teunvansambeek: derived from the financial system, you have, let's say, legal systems that has to do with land ownership and with IP rights and patents and things like that. So my first focus was the financial system.

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teunvansambeek: If you look at the… I always say there are two monopolies there. One is the creation of money. That is, let's say, one monopoly, the other one is insight in transactions.

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teunvansambeek: So, because when you have the monopoly of inside in transactions, you also have the monopoly, basically, of creation of money. Because if you're the only one that can see all the transactions, then you can create on-the-site money that nobody else can see, and that's… that's how the…

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teunvansambeek: let's say the, the, the creation of money, monopoly work. So they, they, those two go together.

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teunvansambeek: And I'm always, like, trying to mirror things, so I try to do the opposite, so if this is bad, so what is the opposite? So, the opposite is to, let's say, democratize the creation of money.

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teunvansambeek: Which means that everybody, instead of having a very small group of people, which is, to me, it's like 10 families that just create money out of thin air.

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teunvansambeek: And, everything is sort of derived from that. Instead of having that.

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teunvansambeek: each time you create money, everybody that participates in the financial system should get a portion of that freshly created money. So, so you want to have a system going on like that to sort of get rid of that first monopoly. The second monopoly is

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teunvansambeek: every transaction should be transparent to everybody, because there is no other way to fight, let's say, the monopoly of insider money, if not everybody can see. You know, it's…

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teunvansambeek: Nobody will spend all this day to check 8 billion accounts, but you need to be able, if you want to pin more points to one account, you need to be able to look at what is going on there. And to me, that has to do with the creation of, let's say, the money that we are using day to day.

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teunvansambeek: On top of that financial system, you can… because…

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teunvansambeek: you won't get rid of gold, you won't get rid of diamonds, so you can still build, let's say, cryptocurrencies on top of what I call ethical money, a money system that is fair to everybody.

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teunvansambeek: So, you can still build those systems on top of it, but let's say the base… the base money.

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teunvansambeek: And to me, it's like the money we use to buy bread, so, you know, I don't care if anybody sees that I bought bread, or went to a restaurant, or so. So these basic transactions, everybody can see. If I want to do something that other people will see, then I will find another way, using cryptocurrencies or anything, that nobody can see that. But that is on top, and that has an other purpose.

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teunvansambeek: The first purpose you have is to create… I call it lubricating the… let's say, barter. Basically, what you want to do with money is lubricate barter, because barter is not very handy. So…

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teunvansambeek: And if you do that,

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teunvansambeek: So that is sort of the system, and it's, let's say, one… I call it one coin per hour.

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teunvansambeek: How does this work? And it's a very simple formula. If you have one coin per hour, so if you give everybody one coin per hour, you create, let's say, 8 billion coins every hour.

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teunvansambeek: which is, let's say, an infinite amount of inflation. So you want to curb that inflation, and you can simply do that by using demurage, or let's say, a negative interest rate.

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teunvansambeek: So you just… and you do… you also do that per hour.

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teunvansambeek: And what I did is I used the number 1 divided by 20,000, or you can also say 0.99995.

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teunvansambeek: And it's simple math, so if I use a demorage of, let's say, that I multiply all the money that I have with a factor of 0.99995 every hour, then if I do that infinitive.

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teunvansambeek: then I end up with 20,000 coins. So if I don't spend anything.

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teunvansambeek: I get one coin every hour, and I have a demorage of that percentage, then I end up with 20,000 coins, which means that if everybody does this, you get a fixed money supply per person of 20,000 coins.

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teunvansambeek: And that is very important, because when you have a fixed money supply, you don't have inflation and deflation anymore, it just goes away.

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teunvansambeek: So then you have, let's say, a basis of

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teunvansambeek: doing, of trading with each other. And the nice thing about The… the percentage is that…

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teunvansambeek: let's say, if you are a millionaire, then you will pay, let's say, 50… $50 or 50 coins every hour, but if you have no money, you don't pay anything, because the demorage is a percentage over nothing. So you don't lose nothing. So people that have nothing will automatically get one coin every hour, which will be enough to, sort of.

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teunvansambeek: buy food and live. It's like a social security system.

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teunvansambeek: And this way, you just pump money around. So this is how you create money, how you make sure that the money supply is always constant, and that there is a sort of a social security.

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teunvansambeek: net, but also that if you have a lot of money, you can still become a millionaire, but you have quite a good incentive, because on a yearly base, you're talking about a 30%, let's say, a 30% cut that goes off your

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teunvansambeek: of your, of your, let's say, your, your balance, to invest it. So you want to invest that money. You don't want to hold the money, you want to invest it in houses or in land or whatever you can buy.

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teunvansambeek: To, to make sure your money doesn't just fly away.

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teunvansambeek: And when you die, your money just disappears, so you can still… so your inheritance can be used by your children, but because you're dead, you're not generating one coin per hour anymore.

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teunvansambeek: So the money supply goes down with 20,000 if one person dies. So that means that, compared to the amount of people that are alive, the money supply is always sort of equal, and that is,

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teunvansambeek: So you solve, let's say, two issues, or two, three, three issues, actually, in one system.

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teunvansambeek: So, no, so that's what I came up with. I programmed it already, it's running. You can go to my website, you can make an account, and once you have an account, then you start receiving… you start with 1,000 coins just to get going, and then you start receiving one coin every hour.

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teunvansambeek: And you will see that in a period of, like, 5 years, you already reached 20,000. So it goes quite quickly to get to the full money supply.

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teunvansambeek: So… so that's what I came up with, then I started to write a book about it, so I got a book, it's called Abundant… you can go to my site, abundantMe.com, you can download the book there.

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teunvansambeek: And so somebody told me, what you're doing with this negative interest, because I didn't know it was Demiraj yet.

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teunvansambeek: So the name was Dame Roger, so somebody told me, oh, you need to look at Silvio Gazelle's… I knew about the Wergel case, but I didn't really went into the, let's say, the science that was behind it.

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teunvansambeek: in Virgo, and then I figured out… found out about Silvio Gazelle, and then I contacted, Josh.

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teunvansambeek: Because I knew that, or I learned on the internet that he was sort of the guy to meet, and that we had a podcast, and here I am.

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teunvansambeek: So… That's sort of my story.

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An_Maonaigh: Wow, toying.

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An_Maonaigh: Another prophet, another genius. Wow, we have a room full of genii.

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An_Maonaigh: And, aren't we blessed that we can call in from Peru, and Hungary, and Scotland, and Ireland, Rwanda?

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An_Maonaigh: So, something going on in the world which allows us to connect together. Toyne, can you put in the link to your URL in the chat, just to make sure the spelling is right? Yeah. Of your book?

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An_Maonaigh: And I'm curious, Toyne, have you launched it, in Rwanda, or anywhere else?

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teunvansambeek: No, anybody can, so, basically, there are two things. I have a website, it's called Abundome, but I'm just… at the moment, I've just started to… to transfer it, because I did a massive update of my financial program.

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teunvansambeek: My financial program is… I'll put it in the… let's see, is this everyone? Yeah, everyone? I'll put it in now, it's,

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teunvansambeek: One coin edge.

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teunvansambeek: dot com.

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An_Maonaigh: Beautiful.

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teunvansambeek: Yeah.

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teunvansambeek: So that's the… that is the, let's say, the financial system, and then I have this.

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teunvansambeek: I'm done.

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teunvansambeek: Good man.

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teunvansambeek: Cool.

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teunvansambeek: So, this is the website, which is a bit old, but I'm gonna redo that one. But this is basically the first thing that you see is download the book, you can click on it, and then you download my book, which is the most important thing, I think.

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teunvansambeek: So the book I wrote a year ago, explaining about basically these four, these four, monopolies.

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teunvansambeek: How we can fight it, yeah, and how this, let's say, this financial system also sort of…

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teunvansambeek: Could have a place in that.

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teunvansambeek: I think that… so there… there's perhaps one thing I need to add, which is quite an important conversation that I had from the beginning.

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teunvansambeek: is, so how do you start with this? Because…

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teunvansambeek: Can you start with, let's say, a small community that uses this type of money, and then sort of…

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teunvansambeek: becomes popular and conquers the world, sort of. Is that possible or not? And, in the beginning, I, as, let's say, as any

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teunvansambeek: person that studies cryptocurrencies. All these initiatives, they have sort of the idea, okay.

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teunvansambeek: we're gonna launch this, it's now… it's… the technology is very good, so, nobody can see us, and nobody can stop this, and so with… with, let's say, this crypto, we can fight… we can fight the world.

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teunvansambeek: to me, that, that was… that's how I also started, but in the time, let's say in the last 5-6 years.

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teunvansambeek: I… especially 2 years ago, when you really think about it.

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teunvansambeek: It doesn't really make sense, because you are fighting, you try to fight the system.

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teunvansambeek: But the system is so… is so bad.

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teunvansambeek: that it will try to fight back, and it will just… just destroy you, probably. So, I am not a fan of… I call it a sort of techno… I'm not a fan of the technology push.

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teunvansambeek: I sh… I think it should be, let's say it's not technology, but it's like,

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teunvansambeek: What is the English word? It should be a push, let's say, from,

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teunvansambeek: philosophy. It should be here, philosophy… a philosophy push. Sorry, pull.

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teunvansambeek: So people first need to understand What is the philosophy? Before…

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Gyuri: Exactly.

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teunvansambeek: You start pushing a technology.

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teunvansambeek: So, and that is a very important distinction, because if you…

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teunvansambeek: Try to do a technology push.

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teunvansambeek: then you create a technology that is sort of fighting, that needs to fight the rest. And you can do that only by going, let's say, underground and make it everything hidden, but

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teunvansambeek: the… the issue, what we are fighting, is we want to have transparency. So, how are you gonna mix, let's say, transparency with… with…

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teunvansambeek: Fighting the system, because

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teunvansambeek: you're basically showing everything that you do, and so the people that are fighting you will just know, okay, this is the group that we need to destroy, this is what we need to cancel or to make illegal. It doesn't work. So, that's why I wrote my book.

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teunvansambeek: just to explain the philosophy about abundance, and… and if you look at what's going on in the Strait of Hormuz, that is, to me, is like this cool example of creating scarcity. So they're just…

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teunvansambeek: pushing more scarcity to push more control, because they need more control, because they know people are waking up, and so they, they try to push that at the moment. Okay, Josh, you, you, you, you're on.

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teunvansambeek: I see, yeah.

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Josh Sidman: Yeah, so…

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Josh Sidman: I want to… I wanna… focus on…

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Josh Sidman: something that you and I, Toyne, do not agree on.

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Josh Sidman: For the purpose of…

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Josh Sidman: bringing this conversation back to what… what I think we're all here to discuss, which is how to…

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Josh Sidman: How to have better conversations, and how to… Enable our different visions to…

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Josh Sidman: coexist and potentially compete with each other in actual practice. So.

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Josh Sidman: Toyne, you said that you believe it is important for the money supply to be fixed relative to the population, that that is the solution to inflation or deflation. I don't agree with that point.

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Josh Sidman: So what do we do about that? We could, debate endlessly about economic theory until one of us concedes. That might never happen.

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Josh Sidman: or… We could each… build our…

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Josh Sidman: visions and set them up to operate side by side in what I refer to as a sandbox. A sandbox is a play space in which each of us can

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Josh Sidman: To the extent that we're capable of, manifest

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Josh Sidman: a working model of our ideas, and… and open it up for the participation of anyone who finds it interesting or compelling. And so… so you and I, Toyne, who agree

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Josh Sidman: on maybe 80% or 90%, but have different understandings of 10 or 20%, can set up our… our…

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Josh Sidman: respective projects, both in the same sandbox, and we can see how they work. Maybe one…

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Josh Sidman: maybe one… my… the reason why I don't agree with the idea of a fixed money supply is because I think that that would be inherently, I think it would create instability. I think that money supply needs to be flexible.

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Josh Sidman: like I said, we… I don't think that the best way to resolve that difference of opinion is to argue about it endlessly. I think that ultimately, you need to just test them out side by side. And so, if you set up your system, and I set up my system, one has a fixed money supply, another has a different model for regulating the money supply, then… and one

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Josh Sidman: performs… Better or worse than the other.

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teunvansambeek: Yeah.

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Josh Sidman: Then there will be concrete evidence to persuade

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Josh Sidman: the group that has gravitated toward one to move over to the other in a non-coerced way. One only moves to a different model when one is convinced that it's a better one.

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Josh Sidman: And… The problem of the bubbles

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Josh Sidman: is… is really a formidable problem. You've got An incredibly rich, bubble.

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Josh Sidman: that…

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Josh Sidman: there's a… there's a… there's a high hurdle to entering your bubble, and I think you're experiencing that challenge in terms of

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Josh Sidman: getting people to come and participate in your system.

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Josh Sidman: Whereas if we… if we all come together around this mission of creating a sandbox that is inclusive, that

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Josh Sidman: your vision does not in any way detract from my vision, that they… that they can be set up side by side, then we're, I think, potentially

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Josh Sidman: bringing those bubbles together in a way that can build some real momentum. So… so to me, what the foundation of what I'm here for, is

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Josh Sidman: A conversation, a new… a new conversation paradigm, and a sandbox. Can we… and the conversation is about the sandbox.

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Josh Sidman: How do we create the sandbox, and how do we facilitate the conversation? That is what I think…

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Josh Sidman: I'm here for.

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teunvansambeek: So, let me first respond to that, if I may.

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teunvansambeek: So.

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teunvansambeek: I always say so, because I… you're very right, saying I'm sort of in a bubble. I did it all by my own. I didn't have help.

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teunvansambeek: Sort of. I just looked at it and gave it my best shot.

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teunvansambeek: And I always said, that's… once I can show people what it is that I'm talking about.

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teunvansambeek: then we can look at it and see if we can improve it, or where did I go wrong in my reasoning, or is there any mistake, and I'm very open to that. That is also a reason I don't really want to launch it like this is it, because when you launch something.

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teunvansambeek: And, an example is, Kortel.

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teunvansambeek: I really like Portal, for example. It's also sort of a cryptocurrency, but it doesn't work with, let's say, it works with, let's say, if you keep the blockchain alive, then you get coins. So it is a bit different than others.

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teunvansambeek: But it's very close to already what I am doing, sort of. I really like that idea, but they launched it, and because they launched it, now they're making concessions, so now they're having trading… made trading possible with, let's say, fiat currencies.

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teunvansambeek: And it's not getting better, it's getting worse because of that, because they sort of want to survive in this world, which is a shame, because

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teunvansambeek: The idea is good, but once you start to launch it.

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teunvansambeek: You, you, you get all the other, let's say,

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teunvansambeek: decisions to make, because you want to keep it alive, or is it about keeping this thing alive, or is it about making the best thing possible?

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teunvansambeek: And that's what I exactly want…

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teunvansambeek: to do what you say, I want to show what I… what I've made, and…

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teunvansambeek: And if other people can make other things, then just compare it, and what are the best things that we can derive out of it, so that we know how to continue. And that's also why I reached out to you, so that other people that sort of study this, that know what they're talking about, can look at this and say, okay.

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teunvansambeek: I don't like your solution for deflation, inflation, or you're making a mistake here and there. And I think there are many

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teunvansambeek: possibilities to solve this.

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teunvansambeek: there are… let's say you can turn buttons, or you can press buttons in my one coin per hour system. For example, you can change the demirage if there are economic, let's say, reasons to change the parameters in your system.

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teunvansambeek: Why not? But first, somebody needs to convince me that it's necessary, because, for example, if I look at

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teunvansambeek: inflation. 120 years ago, there was, like, $1 trillion in the world. Now there is $350 trillions going around in the world.

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teunvansambeek: That has all been created outside our knowledge, because somebody created it, and somebody owned it, and borrowed it out to other people, which we allowed, so this money supply has just exploded in the last 120 years.

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teunvansambeek: without…

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teunvansambeek: real big effect here. The only effect is that most people are poor now, because the people that print money can control scarcity. But it doesn't sort of…

471
01:09:33.750 --> 01:09:47.970
teunvansambeek: You have the biggest, let's say, industrial development in perhaps the last 100,000 years. So inflation is not really causing, let's say, everything to collapse.

472
01:09:47.970 --> 01:10:07.699
teunvansambeek: But the question is, if we… do we want… if you, let's say, allow the money supply to be changing, the question will be, so how do you do that in a fair way? And that's a discussion that you need to have. And I'm very glad to be here, to have that discussion with people that have these ideas.

473
01:10:07.710 --> 01:10:10.169
teunvansambeek: Because otherwise, I'd be only in my bubble.

474
01:10:12.490 --> 01:10:15.760
An_Maonaigh: I'd like to commend,

475
01:10:15.990 --> 01:10:28.100
An_Maonaigh: Brothers, I think that's also why I'm here, because I'm a dialogue practitioner, as well as we're creating

476
01:10:29.000 --> 01:10:37.140
An_Maonaigh: an economic system based on the ancient principles of Breton law, so I come with a number of different hats here.

477
01:10:37.860 --> 01:10:40.980
An_Maonaigh: And what I'd like to, witness…

478
01:10:41.600 --> 01:10:50.010
An_Maonaigh: is that dialogue, as a methodology, as I learned it from David Bohm, and I'll put that in the chat.

479
01:10:50.170 --> 01:10:53.049
An_Maonaigh: I learned dialogue from David Bohm.

480
01:10:53.260 --> 01:11:05.459
An_Maonaigh: And it provides the process where two competing ideas, an idea of fixed money supply and an idea of flexible money supply.

481
01:11:05.680 --> 01:11:08.670
An_Maonaigh: Can be in a big enough container.

482
01:11:09.570 --> 01:11:17.110
An_Maonaigh: Where they can both live and operate and thrive, and so I think that's partly why I'm here.

483
01:11:17.460 --> 01:11:20.130
An_Maonaigh: And I'm just looking at the time.

484
01:11:20.440 --> 01:11:32.690
An_Maonaigh: We're nearly on 2 hours, that's what we had allowed, and I'm not suggesting we finish, but I'm just saying, we're here together in this particular group, we're meeting every 2 weeks for now.

485
01:11:33.010 --> 01:11:38.910
An_Maonaigh: To see if we can provide a continuous dialogue methodology

486
01:11:39.290 --> 01:11:47.680
An_Maonaigh: that would be able to bring in other people who aren't here in this meeting. Michael's not here, Guillen is not here.

487
01:11:47.800 --> 01:11:53.880
An_Maonaigh: Cam is not here. How do we create The richness of this?

488
01:11:54.320 --> 01:11:58.130
An_Maonaigh: which we can share. Obviously, we'll give them the Zoom call.

489
01:11:58.970 --> 01:12:04.360
An_Maonaigh: But we're also looking for a way for those people who aren't present at this time

490
01:12:05.150 --> 01:12:09.120
An_Maonaigh: To fully think and feel into this

491
01:12:09.340 --> 01:12:16.199
An_Maonaigh: Artifact, which is our Zoom call, to be able to look at the chat, to be able to look at the transcript.

492
01:12:16.200 --> 01:12:30.670
An_Maonaigh: and contribute their wisdom and insights as well. So this is why we've convened in these every two weeks. We're not here to launch new economic systems. Everybody in this room has launched an economic system.

493
01:12:30.670 --> 01:12:36.740
An_Maonaigh: in their own separate bubbles. And so what we're looking for is a…

494
01:12:36.740 --> 01:12:42.259
An_Maonaigh: An ocean, so that all the bubbles can live,

495
01:12:42.330 --> 01:12:51.119
An_Maonaigh: heartily, and in a state of abundance. So that's kind of why we're here. We're trying to produce a dialogic methodology.

496
01:12:51.460 --> 01:12:55.640
An_Maonaigh: So we're not here to argue about inflation.

497
01:12:56.190 --> 01:13:04.779
An_Maonaigh: And I think what dialogue does, it creates the opportunity for us to create this sandbox to speak at a philosophical level.

498
01:13:05.440 --> 01:13:18.270
An_Maonaigh: So that when you go and test, Abundame, and if you test NES that Josh has, or if we want to do a system called Grow, or if Chris is implementing something in Scotland.

499
01:13:19.140 --> 01:13:31.030
An_Maonaigh: that we are all coming from a space where we're operating and contributing, as Guri has been saying, as an indie web.

500
01:13:32.160 --> 01:13:43.180
An_Maonaigh: You know, with some of the technical tools that Guri's talking about, with some of the technical architecture for the money systems, with the dialogic methodology.

501
01:13:43.870 --> 01:13:51.559
An_Maonaigh: So I just wanted to bring that in. Dialogue is a space where this is possible, and this is our third dialogue. We call these dialogues.

502
01:13:51.690 --> 01:14:03.130
An_Maonaigh: And we'll have one in two weeks, where some people will do some work, they'll share information, and etc. So that's why we're here, to create the continuous dialogue.

503
01:14:05.210 --> 01:14:16.290
An_Maonaigh: And because we'd allowed 2 hours, I think, and we're in 90 minutes now, so I just want to say we're allowing 30 minutes to percolate.

504
01:14:16.290 --> 01:14:25.720
An_Maonaigh: And if people have commitments for 2 hours, that 30 minutes is, is a timestamp. So I just want to leave the space open now. Thank you.

505
01:14:33.510 --> 01:14:34.280
Gyuri: Hello?

506
01:14:36.000 --> 01:14:36.670
Gyuri: I'm kidding.

507
01:14:40.680 --> 01:14:41.740
teunvansambeek: Yeah, go ahead.

508
01:14:42.550 --> 01:14:46.810
Gyuri: Well, I couldn't find the button to raise my hand.

509
01:14:47.030 --> 01:14:53.140
Gyuri: I don't know, I just can't find it. Well, thank you, Tim, or Tom, or what was it, Tim?

510
01:14:53.140 --> 01:14:54.370
teunvansambeek: Et turn.

511
01:14:54.610 --> 01:14:57.689
teunvansambeek: Tony, but you can also call me Tony, but it's Tone.

512
01:14:57.690 --> 01:15:15.489
Gyuri: Tony, that's it, that's it, that's it, that's it. And call me Julie. Jury is good enough, you know. Jury, yeah, dog jury. And Josh, I think I'm so happy to hear from you what exactly I want to tell you.

513
01:15:15.660 --> 01:15:23.769
Gyuri: That you see that the most important thing… it's very important, the economy and all these things, and I'm very into this.

514
01:15:23.920 --> 01:15:29.929
Gyuri: But we really need to figure out how we can actually have conversations which last.

515
01:15:30.230 --> 01:15:32.639
Gyuri: Which permanent, which are resumable.

516
01:15:33.180 --> 01:15:38.580
Gyuri: And reflect the complexity of what we are dealing with, or captures it.

517
01:15:38.720 --> 01:15:47.530
Gyuri: So that, that, that's really, the, the, the, what I'm trying to, to bring, and the, and, Tim, the, Tony, the…

518
01:15:47.760 --> 01:16:06.779
Gyuri: That's exactly it, and I like the sandbox idea, because that's what the IndieWeb is, is basically… it's actually a constellation of different scaling architectures, because the idea that you want to be… you want to do something

519
01:16:06.930 --> 01:16:08.289
Gyuri: Whatever it is.

520
01:16:08.420 --> 01:16:12.329
Gyuri: And then you go to the so-called non-functional requirements.

521
01:16:12.430 --> 01:16:22.059
Gyuri: How is it scale? Is it a personal thing? Is it… is it a low number number? Is it millions of users? Is it intergalactic?

522
01:16:22.320 --> 01:16:27.080
Gyuri: Now, clearly, whatever you want to do as a human being is the same.

523
01:16:27.620 --> 01:16:36.069
Gyuri: But at the moment, what we do, we architect the whole, whole, Full stock.

524
01:16:36.900 --> 01:16:50.950
Gyuri: And rewrite everything every time to fit that requirement, whereas what we should be able to do is to get it work for 1, get it work for 2, get it work for 3,

525
01:16:50.950 --> 01:16:59.929
Gyuri: And the rest is principle of inductive construction, which is to say, you should be able to figure out once and for all

526
01:17:00.770 --> 01:17:05.590
Gyuri: The basic machinery that anybody can use

527
01:17:06.380 --> 01:17:18.089
Gyuri: for whatever they want to do, because if you've got to create a universal way of having conversations about what do I want, which turn gradually into working software.

528
01:17:18.320 --> 01:17:34.469
Gyuri: which is… which is really possible now, then, then, then, then we… we have, we have… and the same thing is that, that exactly we should be able to, the way the IndieWeb, as I was dreaming about it would be for all these years.

529
01:17:34.550 --> 01:17:52.400
Gyuri: And it took me a long time to actually articulate it, had Alan and others have been in discussions. In dialogue, it came out. There are principles, and I'm so glad to hear you, because I'm the same with the web. If you want to know what kind of a system we need, well, just say no.

530
01:17:52.650 --> 01:17:55.359
Gyuri: Look at the opposite of what that is.

531
01:17:55.840 --> 01:18:12.439
Gyuri: You've got a strong guarantee that something which… which enhances human potential is everything of the opposite. And I got 72 items. If you… if you look at… look at the way we work on… with the web, the way it is constructed.

532
01:18:12.650 --> 01:18:30.789
Gyuri: There are 72 points, you know, it's not… it shouldn't be separation of concerns, it should be integration of concerns, you know, and everything, yeah? And I got this idea from Alan Kay 10 years ago on his simplicity tour, when he says he takes an A4 sheet of paper.

533
01:18:30.840 --> 01:18:41.809
Gyuri: Write down the best practices of today, and then whatever we believe to be true, and stick a no in front of it, and explore that space.

534
01:18:42.440 --> 01:18:45.730
Gyuri: So I, I, I, I agree,

535
01:18:46.630 --> 01:19:07.250
Gyuri: I think, I think this is the… this is the key. This is why it's dialogue, and in fact, it has to be omni-optional. It's not… you know, whether it's synchronous or asynchronous, you need all. Whether it's centralized or decentralized, or… or only centric, we need all of them, okay?

536
01:19:07.290 --> 01:19:19.790
Gyuri: You can't have a, you know, you need all of them. It's… that it's quite clear, however… however we… however we rightly, rightly criticize the… the…

537
01:19:19.860 --> 01:19:21.000
Gyuri: big tech.

538
01:19:22.480 --> 01:19:28.640
Gyuri: You do need to be able… you, you need, need, need, need, need, need a God's eye view.

539
01:19:28.990 --> 01:19:31.619
Gyuri: To be accessible for us.

540
01:19:31.740 --> 01:19:49.369
Gyuri: Okay? So, so it's, it's, it's not an either-or, it's all and. And you really need to, need to, need to, need, you know, need, need to, and that's the, that's the whole point, is that, I think the English is, even a, a, a blind,

541
01:19:50.450 --> 01:20:04.129
Gyuri: Squidow can find a knot, okay? I really like people who… who are very far out, like my… my wife, you know? Because from that position, she sees things that I don't.

542
01:20:04.790 --> 01:20:11.589
Gyuri: as Wilbur said, when I finished now this, and I'm so enjoying it, it's just so lovely to be… I'm in heaven.

543
01:20:11.700 --> 01:20:20.959
Gyuri: Is that, that, nobody's that smart to be wrong all the time, or to… yeah, yeah, to be wrong all the time, okay?

544
01:20:21.330 --> 01:20:23.310
Gyuri: So just, just bear that in mind.

545
01:20:23.860 --> 01:20:35.819
Gyuri: And thank you very much. I think, I think we really need to… need to… and I put some links in, but I'm not ready with it, but next week, I… I… I'm gonna create this for this

546
01:20:35.990 --> 01:20:42.269
Gyuri: discussion today, I will put it up, whatever I can do with the existing bits of the technology.

547
01:20:42.370 --> 01:20:56.090
Gyuri: And just one other thing, that's the other thing that is built into the IndieWeb. The best thing about the IPFS, which nobody knows, nobody… actually, nobody studied it as I did.

548
01:20:56.530 --> 01:21:05.710
Gyuri: is the idea, which is in the very first videos, you can… you can… it's there. The whole point is that you should be able to create something

549
01:21:06.130 --> 01:21:11.600
Gyuri: Working on the web for the benefit of people, Which is unstoppable.

550
01:21:12.010 --> 01:21:15.470
Gyuri: Unsensible. And you can just walk away.

551
01:21:15.700 --> 01:21:22.809
Gyuri: And it will be good for forever, because it should have the ways of actually improving it and changing it.

552
01:21:22.960 --> 01:21:41.999
Gyuri: That's the whole point. You don't deliver and you are the boss. The whole point is you create something for the commons, for all benefits, and provide the means of they actually being able to do that for themselves. So the only… the crucial thing, we need a system which people can

553
01:21:42.150 --> 01:21:43.010
Gyuri: can…

554
01:21:43.640 --> 01:22:00.930
Gyuri: can build it for themselves. And in fact, this is what I do. I write very little code, because anything worth having, somebody has already built the system. All you need to do is find it, and find a way of plugging it in.

555
01:22:01.060 --> 01:22:07.820
Gyuri: That's all you need to do. Most of the things I… I had stopped coding 6 years ago. There's no need.

556
01:22:09.160 --> 01:22:23.570
Gyuri: you need to find… you need to find the people you need to talk to, you need to find the system which… and figure out how you compose them, and how you describe this composition. So it's really a matter of notation and methodology.

557
01:22:23.570 --> 01:22:29.490
Gyuri: It's aimed… what you do is the way that you do it. That's… that's what gets results, so…

558
01:22:29.550 --> 01:22:31.679
Gyuri: I'm very happy to be able to…

559
01:22:31.770 --> 01:22:49.090
Gyuri: I see your face, I see your… that's it. We all… we all come to this… I mean, you are the first person who said exactly what I felt, and I… I feel it just as important as that as you do. Well, if you want to know what a good financial system should do.

560
01:22:49.130 --> 01:22:53.929
Gyuri: Well, no! Just look at what the opposite of what's happening.

561
01:22:54.090 --> 01:22:55.280
Gyuri: Okay.

562
01:22:55.780 --> 01:23:04.610
Gyuri: Because that's… and we don't need to argue this, okay? Whether it's fuck-up theory or conspiracy, I don't care.

563
01:23:04.840 --> 01:23:09.910
Gyuri: It is clearly the system is as bad as it possibly could be.

564
01:23:10.370 --> 01:23:20.900
Gyuri: Okay? And it actually shows what it… what it denies. It denies human potential, okay? So there you are. Thank you very much.

565
01:23:21.770 --> 01:23:22.570
Gyuri: Yeah.

566
01:23:24.350 --> 01:23:25.250
Gyuri: Thank you.

567
01:23:26.850 --> 01:23:39.000
An_Maonaigh: brother, so… When I heard, Twain describing abundamy, have I said that right? Abandonami? Abundomy!

568
01:23:39.000 --> 01:23:40.560
teunvansambeek: Abundomy is like…

569
01:23:40.560 --> 01:23:41.269
An_Maonaigh: A boom to me.

570
01:23:41.270 --> 01:23:44.880
teunvansambeek: Imagination be between abundance and economy, you know?

571
01:23:45.370 --> 01:23:54.659
An_Maonaigh: I realized that what we're sitting in… if that's a bun to me, what we're sitting in is sodomy, because we're getting fucked everywhere.

572
01:23:56.110 --> 01:24:08.859
An_Maonaigh: I thought that's a lovely, context. But, Guri, I have a question for you. With all of these no-coding tools, low-coding tools, and you're saying, let's not do that.

573
01:24:09.320 --> 01:24:12.900
An_Maonaigh: How do we empower people? Because I see no.

574
01:24:12.900 --> 01:24:15.400
Gyuri: Because the point is that the…

575
01:24:15.510 --> 01:24:32.289
Gyuri: I haven't tried it. You can be low-code, or it doesn't matter. Again, it's the opposite. The more they push it, the more you know that's not the way, because what's happening is that the web

576
01:24:34.450 --> 01:24:44.390
Gyuri: Has it grown? And I fully understand, the only way you could have made it interplanetary and global is to build in

577
01:24:44.390 --> 01:24:55.950
Gyuri: financial incentives for it to grow, okay? So… so that's why this… this… this unholy marriage between, money and… and VC.

578
01:24:55.950 --> 01:25:09.129
Gyuri: But this is something, the most important I forgot to say, that it's… we are not interested. Again, what's the opposite of exit strategy in a VEC world?

579
01:25:09.810 --> 01:25:17.049
Gyuri: The exit strategy is, is, is not even what HoloChain did, which is a very good

580
01:25:17.200 --> 01:25:22.989
Gyuri: step in the right direction. They said, let's exit to communities.

581
01:25:23.390 --> 01:25:24.430
Gyuri: Okay?

582
01:25:25.060 --> 01:25:26.880
Gyuri: Now, actually.

583
01:25:27.000 --> 01:25:41.799
Gyuri: I think it's sort of… what we are doing here, right now, we are entering into communities. We are… we need to build… build the capabilities needed to actually spawn communities.

584
01:25:43.300 --> 01:25:48.710
Gyuri: That, that, that really is the challenge. How we could facilitate,

585
01:25:48.840 --> 01:26:02.250
Gyuri: inter-intellect, you know, how can we facilitate? All these good insights can be… because we need… need… need… need to make the bandwidth so much harder, and coming back to the… to the low code and low code, and whatever.

586
01:26:02.530 --> 01:26:05.309
Gyuri: the… the crew, as I said.

587
01:26:05.830 --> 01:26:12.099
Gyuri: Anything you… anything you want, video editing, annotation, doesn't matter what it is.

588
01:26:12.330 --> 01:26:30.170
Gyuri: good open source libraries are around. You really need to think, as I used to call it, programming in the large. No, we need to… need to… need to consider the composition of all these, and that is something which was invented in 2010.

589
01:26:30.260 --> 01:26:33.430
Gyuri: called Progressive Web Apps, okay?

590
01:26:34.050 --> 01:26:42.040
Gyuri: So as long as you can… you can reconstitute whatever, whatever web capability you want, as a PWA,

591
01:26:42.320 --> 01:26:45.790
Gyuri: it has two… two things. It works offline.

592
01:26:46.180 --> 01:26:50.480
Gyuri: Okay? And it works with local… local storage.

593
01:26:50.670 --> 01:26:54.989
Gyuri: So if, if, if, if you, if you reshape whatever you have.

594
01:26:55.280 --> 01:27:11.800
Gyuri: and formulate it in such a way that it works low on offline as well, and local storage, then it can be trivially incorporated into the indie web by anybody anytime.

595
01:27:12.490 --> 01:27:22.290
Gyuri: Okay, because the whole trick is the whole thing is that instead of every application worrying about the create, read, update, delete.

596
01:27:22.450 --> 01:27:38.779
Gyuri: mechanism, and use a database, whatever, which has to be handcrafted for that particular solution. Let's have a universal way of handling the crude operations, the data layer operations.

597
01:27:38.780 --> 01:27:51.079
Gyuri: which is interplayable and exchangeable at whatever scale, okay? And that's really the solution. So, so the actual, actual, working with it or extending, it's really…

598
01:27:51.260 --> 01:28:04.100
Gyuri: it does require some knowledge, but it's not that complexity. And the point is, we need to be… I mean, like I do with Pirgos, or Cleepad, or whatever, you… there is Pirgos, for example, it's got…

599
01:28:04.290 --> 01:28:09.310
Gyuri: And many other systems produce this kind of thing, this sort of,

600
01:28:09.770 --> 01:28:28.900
Gyuri: entire suite of applications which work uniformly, and work with… work with the… work with the storage layers. So there is the… there is three, three, the infrastructureing, that's… that's… that's, that's… that's a separate issue, but you've got storage.

601
01:28:28.930 --> 01:28:34.690
Gyuri: And, and KPI, that's the other thing, which is very important. So you ship.

602
01:28:34.870 --> 01:28:43.580
Gyuri: work… that's it. You ship working systems. Allow people to interact with them and play with them, and… and that's true, as you said.

603
01:28:43.580 --> 01:28:58.719
Gyuri: You can do the experiments, if you… if you want this, this, this, or that, or… and… and you should be able to articulate this, and the emphasis on the conversation, and the articulation, I call it, the formulation. You've got to formulate the ideas.

604
01:28:59.030 --> 01:29:04.260
Gyuri: And you should be able to have them, yeah. Okay, running on the computer.

605
01:29:04.990 --> 01:29:05.720
Gyuri: Yeah.

606
01:29:05.840 --> 01:29:12.140
Gyuri: Yeah. I don't know whether it was any… any of it was com… was comprehensible, but .

607
01:29:12.950 --> 01:29:15.609
teunvansambeek: Yeah, perhaps I can also comment a bit on that.

608
01:29:15.940 --> 01:29:24.170
teunvansambeek: Yes. It's also what I noticed myself. So, in the beginning, I really focused on making it peer-to-peer.

609
01:29:24.310 --> 01:29:28.880
teunvansambeek: So that it… that you don't need a central database, and

610
01:29:29.120 --> 01:29:45.620
teunvansambeek: And I truly believe that that is very possible. It's only important that the parameters you use in your system that are… that are clear, so… because then you can just develop it on an island, and have another island

611
01:29:45.970 --> 01:29:53.690
teunvansambeek: have the same system again, and then when somebody travels from one island to the other island, it's still… you know, you can still…

612
01:29:53.700 --> 01:30:09.110
teunvansambeek: communicate with each other, so that you can still believe and check if the other person has, let's say, has gone through the same process as you did, so that, let's say, his money is as real as yours.

613
01:30:09.320 --> 01:30:23.440
teunvansambeek: So, that was sort of the basis of my idea, but as I said, at this moment, I don't think it's… the technology is not too important, it's about the philosophy. So, first, people need.

614
01:30:23.440 --> 01:30:23.810
Gyuri: Yes.

615
01:30:23.810 --> 01:30:28.219
teunvansambeek: And what… yeah, what is the philosophy? And then you get your technical solutions.

616
01:30:28.860 --> 01:30:35.650
Gyuri: Yes, but the point is that… that you go… that the point is that whatever you do, you have to be omni-optional.

617
01:30:35.720 --> 01:30:53.359
Gyuri: Whatever you do should be able to work in whatever constellation, because you may not have thought of it now, but there will come a point where that will be required. And the point is that when you shift, or let's just take the classic example, real-time or asynchronous.

618
01:30:53.670 --> 01:30:55.719
Gyuri: You need both, okay?

619
01:30:55.720 --> 01:30:56.160
teunvansambeek: No.

620
01:30:56.160 --> 01:31:10.060
Gyuri: You can't say, oh, it's got to be real time. And you've got to be able to, offline and online, and you must be able to handle all these dualities. You know, you really need to be able to do that.

621
01:31:10.420 --> 01:31:12.190
Gyuri: Yeah, but to me, that is…

622
01:31:12.190 --> 01:31:19.520
teunvansambeek: That is also… that is also, sort of a mathematical… Questioned.

623
01:31:20.150 --> 01:31:23.200
teunvansambeek: So, because you can, you can solve all these things.

624
01:31:23.360 --> 01:31:31.770
teunvansambeek: You have the blockchain technology, and you have, let's say, the old-fashioned technologies.

625
01:31:31.770 --> 01:31:33.910
Gyuri: Oh, oh, sorry to interrupt.

626
01:31:34.040 --> 01:31:35.590
Gyuri: blockchain.

627
01:31:36.050 --> 01:31:38.849
Gyuri: It's not derived philosophy.

628
01:31:39.540 --> 01:31:40.400
teunvansambeek: No, it's.

629
01:31:40.400 --> 01:31:51.160
Gyuri: Blockchain is… the notion of absolute time is only needed if you want to be God and want to control it, okay?

630
01:31:51.380 --> 01:32:00.449
Gyuri: For all the other real, real people, they… what… what is needed is… is they themselves can validate.

631
01:32:00.730 --> 01:32:01.980
Gyuri: what they do.

632
01:32:02.260 --> 01:32:09.950
Gyuri: And to the extent that they're connected, and all those connected graphs will be small, you know, small words, three ropes away.

633
01:32:10.140 --> 01:32:15.530
Gyuri: The very idea of the blockchain, It's dead as a mirage.

634
01:32:15.820 --> 01:32:16.720
Gyuri: It's impossible.

635
01:32:16.720 --> 01:32:34.910
teunvansambeek: I agree with you, so it's not that I'm saying it should be in a blockchain. What I'm saying is you have that technology, so if you are offline for a while, then you can use, let's say, temporary blockchain, or you have a personal block… I call it.

636
01:32:34.910 --> 01:32:44.140
Gyuri: No, no, no, it's, it's, it's… sorry, sorry. It's the… it's the big, big divide between the blockchain and the, this, the, the, the, not the ledger.

637
01:32:44.140 --> 01:32:57.780
Gyuri: Who needs the ledger? Accountants. What we need is decentral… is distributed hash tables. Please, if you… if you haven't, haven't, haven't… I heard about IPFS. Sorry?

638
01:32:57.780 --> 01:33:00.029
teunvansambeek: I think that's what I mean, actually.

639
01:33:00.030 --> 01:33:05.560
Gyuri: Yeah, IPFS is a superset of that. From IPFS, you can create a ledger.

640
01:33:05.840 --> 01:33:12.739
Gyuri: You can create a ledger, but it just won't work, you know.

641
01:33:12.740 --> 01:33:13.310
teunvansambeek: Yeah.

642
01:33:13.690 --> 01:33:16.319
teunvansambeek: So you don't need one ledger, I agree with that.

643
01:33:16.950 --> 01:33:26.989
Gyuri: That's it. In fact, this is the whole point. If you want our autonomy, and just as you said, if you… you want… you need radical openness.

644
01:33:27.230 --> 01:33:34.930
Gyuri: You've got to have the whole thing open, and anybody can verify the beat that they cared about anytime.

645
01:33:35.200 --> 01:33:36.840
Gyuri: Okay, on demand.

646
01:33:36.980 --> 01:33:45.269
Gyuri: You need to be on demand, validate your… the swear that concerns you.

647
01:33:45.650 --> 01:33:57.600
Gyuri: And that's exactly… and then you… then you can… and yes, we did and everything, then you don't need… you didn't… don't need authority. You… we are the authority, okay? The participants are the authority.

648
01:33:57.600 --> 01:34:03.090
teunvansambeek: Yeah, yeah, that's the basis of what I'm thinking also about, is the basis, you know?

649
01:34:03.090 --> 01:34:05.840
Gyuri: Yeah, that's a philosophy level, you know, that's it.

650
01:34:05.840 --> 01:34:06.910
teunvansambeek: Absolutely.

651
01:34:06.910 --> 01:34:14.730
An_Maonaigh: Josh for this hand, Josh. And then we have 12 minutes in our allotted time if people stay. That's amazing. But, Josh?

652
01:34:16.210 --> 01:34:25.820
Josh Sidman: Yeah, so I want to try to, bring us back to… square one.

653
01:34:25.980 --> 01:34:30.790
Josh Sidman: for the purpose of planning the next meeting.

654
01:34:33.210 --> 01:34:38.729
Josh Sidman: these meetings never end up being what I anticipated, but I…

655
01:34:38.770 --> 01:34:57.150
Josh Sidman: try to also be open to the idea that what I anticipated was not what needed to happen, and what happened was what needed to happen. So I thought that today, Mike was going to be here, and was going to present us with

656
01:34:57.150 --> 01:35:03.360
Josh Sidman: A demonstration of… Of a crude…

657
01:35:03.920 --> 01:35:12.450
Josh Sidman: version… Yeah, that was the plan, yeah. …of a conversation paradigm. He ended up not being here today. I don't know why.

658
01:35:12.640 --> 01:35:20.430
Josh Sidman: let… I'm… I'm assuming that he didn't need to be here today. But…

659
01:35:21.070 --> 01:35:27.640
Josh Sidman: There are so many different directions that this conversation can go in, and…

660
01:35:29.170 --> 01:35:42.249
Josh Sidman: what I think is fundamental, what I think is ground zero, is… the… conversation architecture.

661
01:35:43.450 --> 01:35:47.479
Josh Sidman: Because that can then be used to conduct

662
01:35:47.880 --> 01:35:57.689
Josh Sidman: an endless array of sub-conversations, or completely separate conversations. But until that

663
01:35:58.990 --> 01:36:08.560
Josh Sidman: architecture is in place and is functioning, and is a tool that is available to us, then we have not moved

664
01:36:08.750 --> 01:36:27.089
Josh Sidman: anywhere, beyond just what we already had, which was the ability to connect via Zoom and have a synchronous conversation among whoever shows up and record it so that whoever didn't show up can… can… can view it.

665
01:36:27.510 --> 01:36:34.789
Josh Sidman: we all agree that we need to move beyond that. So what I would propose

666
01:36:35.060 --> 01:36:40.070
Josh Sidman: For the next time, is…

667
01:36:40.420 --> 01:36:48.480
Josh Sidman: I will… I will make sure that I connect one-on-one with Mike, and that he…

668
01:36:48.930 --> 01:37:00.509
Josh Sidman: is present at the next meeting and has a demo ready to go that he can present to us, and I've got… I've got a list of

669
01:37:00.800 --> 01:37:13.330
Josh Sidman: Questions and topics that need to be addressed in order to, flesh out a conversation architecture. So…

670
01:37:14.050 --> 01:37:24.439
Josh Sidman: What I'm proposing is that the next conversation Could potentially be both The first block.

671
01:37:24.560 --> 01:37:28.110
Josh Sidman: And also the conversation about the first block.

672
01:37:28.260 --> 01:37:42.110
Josh Sidman: So that Mike is gonna come. I've already seen his, his first most crude,

673
01:37:43.020 --> 01:38:00.819
Josh Sidman: implementation of this dialogue paradigm. He's gonna have something a step beyond what I've already seen, hopefully, for the next meeting, and he can then show it to us, and then we can have a conversation about what

674
01:38:01.640 --> 01:38:11.630
Josh Sidman: what else needs to be done to it? In what… what issues need to be addressed? How… what functionalities need to be added?

675
01:38:12.540 --> 01:38:13.950
Josh Sidman: And then…

676
01:38:14.450 --> 01:38:24.340
Josh Sidman: It can become sort of an iterative process where we are using the tool to talk about the tool, and that the tool

677
01:38:24.490 --> 01:38:31.969
Josh Sidman: Evolves through the… Through the process of using it.

678
01:38:32.250 --> 01:38:38.420
Josh Sidman: So that's what I propose we do next time.

679
01:38:41.260 --> 01:38:58.339
An_Maonaigh: And I just want to add in that Juri is saying he will have something to demonstrate, on IPFS in the web, which will keep us all within the same technical architecture, so that we're not going to LinkedIn here, and Zoom there, and…

680
01:38:58.350 --> 01:39:03.909
An_Maonaigh: Amazon over there, so we're talking about, potentially, If it happens…

681
01:39:04.440 --> 01:39:10.350
An_Maonaigh: That we might see two demos next time,

682
01:39:10.500 --> 01:39:16.829
An_Maonaigh: And if not, well then we'll gather and we'll see who's there in the time and space.

683
01:39:18.330 --> 01:39:23.310
An_Maonaigh: So, shall we start checking out, I'm… I'm…

684
01:39:23.480 --> 01:39:30.309
An_Maonaigh: Pleased to keep the room open. If anybody wants to stay later, if anybody needs to leave, we've allowed 2 hours, 7 minutes left.

685
01:39:31.420 --> 01:39:36.019
Josh Sidman: Can I just mention the time zone thing? Because I feel like this is…

686
01:39:36.410 --> 01:39:39.390
Josh Sidman: Throwing a wrench in the works.

687
01:39:40.080 --> 01:39:57.089
Josh Sidman: I still am confused about the difference between GMT and Dublin time, and I know that last… last week, Mike ended up showing… showing up an hour later because he was confused. Can we…

688
01:39:57.550 --> 01:39:59.930
Josh Sidman: Make a different,

689
01:40:00.190 --> 01:40:12.240
Josh Sidman: time zone be the reference time zone? Can we just say that East Coast, United States, New York time zone is what we will all calculate our,

690
01:40:12.360 --> 01:40:16.170
Josh Sidman: Are time differences from? Would that work?

691
01:40:16.170 --> 01:40:33.160
An_Maonaigh: So this is called the Bretton Woods policy. This is what you fuckers did after the war. You made the time zone, you made the dollar, you made the Fed, and look where you're at now. So, no! Fuck off!

692
01:40:33.500 --> 01:40:36.039
teunvansambeek: Yeah, I think I was an hour late, also, because…

693
01:40:36.040 --> 01:40:40.140
Josh Sidman: How about… how about Rwanda time? What's your time zone, Doyne?

694
01:40:40.990 --> 01:40:44.970
teunvansambeek: Yeah, I think it's Central African time. C-A-T it's called, so…

695
01:40:44.970 --> 01:40:48.039
Josh Sidman: Does that ever change? Do you guys do time changes?

696
01:40:48.110 --> 01:40:48.590
Gyuri: No!

697
01:40:48.590 --> 01:40:50.669
teunvansambeek: No, it's… no, we don't have it.

698
01:40:50.670 --> 01:40:51.719
Josh Sidman: Alright, that he ignores.

699
01:40:51.720 --> 01:40:52.270
Gyuri: C.

700
01:40:52.530 --> 01:40:56.160
Gyuri: Yes, yes, yes, that's where Guillen is, yes, yes, yes.

701
01:40:56.160 --> 01:40:57.639
Josh Sidman: Let's use that, then.

702
01:40:57.640 --> 01:41:01.849
Chris Cook: I'm proposing Scottish time, which is opening time.

703
01:41:05.240 --> 01:41:06.490
An_Maonaigh: It's the opening of the…

704
01:41:06.490 --> 01:41:07.729
teunvansambeek: The bars are…

705
01:41:07.730 --> 01:41:08.520
An_Maonaigh: Yeah, yeah.

706
01:41:09.250 --> 01:41:15.320
An_Maonaigh: Beautiful, and I propose Dublin Mushroom time, which means you put it at whatever time you like.

707
01:41:17.720 --> 01:41:29.410
An_Maonaigh: So, yes, Josh, we will put in multiple time zones, and we pray that your confusion will be dissolved, because you'll have so many time zones to turn up at.

708
01:41:30.130 --> 01:41:39.089
teunvansambeek: Yeah. But perhaps you can also send a reminder, like, half an hour before, because I'm an hour late, I think, because I messed up the time zones.

709
01:41:39.600 --> 01:41:41.360
teunvansambeek: I don't… I don't know.

710
01:41:41.360 --> 01:41:45.899
An_Maonaigh: Okay, I'll send… I will send out a reminder, I will, I promise.

711
01:41:46.060 --> 01:41:49.460
Chris Cook: Can I conclude with a little anecdote?

712
01:41:50.730 --> 01:41:53.260
Chris Cook: From the oil business.

713
01:41:53.910 --> 01:41:55.840
Chris Cook: There was a meeting of OPEC.

714
01:41:56.930 --> 01:42:03.209
Chris Cook: And, and the… I think it was the Venezuelan rep and the Saudi rep were having a conversation.

715
01:42:04.040 --> 01:42:07.660
Chris Cook: And the Venezuelan rep said to the Saudi rep,

716
01:42:07.810 --> 01:42:11.350
Chris Cook: Tell me, he said, what does Inshallah mean?

717
01:42:12.960 --> 01:42:20.390
Chris Cook: And the Saudi rep said to him, well, it's like… it's like Manana, but without the same sense of urgency.

718
01:42:23.150 --> 01:42:28.619
An_Maonaigh: And I was in the Middle East. You're lucky if people turn up on the same day, never mind.

719
01:42:28.620 --> 01:42:29.840
Chris Cook: Exactly.

720
01:42:32.080 --> 01:42:36.609
An_Maonaigh: So, yes, we will have multiple time zones, but actually, do you know what?

721
01:42:37.130 --> 01:42:40.090
An_Maonaigh: We're only turning up in the now.

722
01:42:41.880 --> 01:42:52.809
An_Maonaigh: That's how we're actually turning up. I mean, you're saying, Josh, that Mike didn't turn up because he's confused about the time zone. That might not be true, he might not want to be here.

723
01:42:54.550 --> 01:42:55.310
Josh Sidman: possible.

724
01:42:56.290 --> 01:42:57.190
Josh Sidman: But…

725
01:42:57.520 --> 01:43:08.569
Josh Sidman: We're already, we're already fighting an uphill battle. We don't need to be creating additional obstacles to collaboration.

726
01:43:08.570 --> 01:43:09.770
An_Maonaigh: I agree.

727
01:43:10.120 --> 01:43:16.919
Josh Sidman: Can we… can we agree that we're gonna shoot for the same day and the same time.

728
01:43:17.340 --> 01:43:23.810
Josh Sidman: that we did today, which was 9 AM here in Lima,

729
01:43:24.070 --> 01:43:30.489
Josh Sidman: And that we're gonna try to communicate that in a way that nobody can be confused for the.

730
01:43:30.490 --> 01:43:37.470
An_Maonaigh: Somebody's gonna be confused. We cannot guarantee that nobody will be confused.

731
01:43:39.240 --> 01:43:41.559
An_Maonaigh: How could you do that?

732
01:43:43.690 --> 01:43:46.840
Gyuri: Can I ask everybody to click on that link.

733
01:43:47.140 --> 01:44:03.759
Gyuri: And on that page, write, you know, write their name, or change the display name. I wanted to see whether it is actually working, okay? This is not me, this is just Crypt. It's one of the… one of the components we want to use.

734
01:44:04.210 --> 01:44:06.389
Gyuri: So please, just go there.

735
01:44:06.390 --> 01:44:06.910
An_Maonaigh: Yeah.

736
01:44:06.910 --> 01:44:14.819
Gyuri: Perhaps, yeah, take a screenshot of your… of what you do, what you see, and paste it into the document if it works.

737
01:44:15.280 --> 01:44:16.050
Gyuri: I don't know.

738
01:44:16.050 --> 01:44:17.870
An_Maonaigh: Darina, what do you want us to do?

739
01:44:19.030 --> 01:44:25.829
Gyuri: But, well, somebody should share, share their screen, then I can talk, talk to, talk.

740
01:44:25.830 --> 01:44:27.789
An_Maonaigh: I can do that. I can do that.

741
01:44:28.610 --> 01:44:29.190
Gyuri: Yeah.

742
01:44:30.170 --> 01:44:36.489
Gyuri: At the moment, I'm having trouble… trouble… getting that… copying that link myself.

743
01:44:36.490 --> 01:44:37.920
An_Maonaigh: Okay, no worries. Cool.

744
01:44:37.920 --> 01:44:39.559
Gyuri: Healing, okay.

745
01:44:40.900 --> 01:44:43.250
Gyuri: Sorry, I have to, I have to let it get out.

746
01:44:43.730 --> 01:44:45.199
An_Maonaigh: Okay, let the cat out.

747
01:44:45.450 --> 01:44:47.240
teunvansambeek: It's… it's working with me.

748
01:44:48.260 --> 01:44:52.389
Gyuri: Well, she's hungry, and the door was closed.

749
01:44:52.910 --> 01:44:53.450
Gyuri: Yep.

750
01:44:53.450 --> 01:44:54.640
teunvansambeek: Yeah, exactly.

751
01:44:55.150 --> 01:44:57.850
An_Maonaigh: Okay, so this is the, the link you gave us.

752
01:44:58.340 --> 01:45:04.799
Gyuri: Yes, and this is… this is… this is… this is just to show that what… can you see… give you that mushroom?

753
01:45:04.830 --> 01:45:20.819
Gyuri: The whole point is, this is… this is… this is… it's not the only one, but Fitbit is very good at this. It basically… you can… you can share any document you create in a way that anybody can have access to it, and who has the link, and edit it.

754
01:45:20.820 --> 01:45:25.139
Gyuri: And then you can… you can… if you click on your mushroom, and, you go to…

755
01:45:25.140 --> 01:45:27.230
An_Maonaigh: I love it! Where's the mushroom?

756
01:45:27.790 --> 01:45:30.450
Gyuri: Yeah, there's a mushroom icon there.

757
01:45:30.450 --> 01:45:32.399
An_Maonaigh: Yeah, yeah, okay, click the mushroom, yeah.

758
01:45:32.400 --> 01:45:34.350
Gyuri: Okay, and say Settings.

759
01:45:34.350 --> 01:45:35.040
An_Maonaigh: Yep.

760
01:45:36.120 --> 01:45:44.919
Gyuri: And change the display name, go, go to, profile, click on profile.

761
01:45:44.920 --> 01:45:45.610
An_Maonaigh: Yep.

762
01:45:45.610 --> 01:45:47.440
Gyuri: And, and write your name.

763
01:45:50.020 --> 01:45:51.179
Gyuri: There you are.

764
01:45:51.400 --> 01:46:07.860
Gyuri: So I'm just saying that I want to… I'm not writing any code, I'm using existing open source stuff and combined them. So this already gives you… if everybody does this here, and you preserve this link.

765
01:46:07.910 --> 01:46:27.610
Gyuri: This field… this field, I don't… not gonna delete it or anything. So you can… you can send messages to me, because I'm gonna be there a lot. You can chat, and you can write anything you like, you know, create a new… new heading, a new section in that, and write whatever you want, and… and know that… that I asynchronously

766
01:46:27.610 --> 01:46:29.699
Gyuri: Some of us, we'll have a look at it.

767
01:46:30.580 --> 01:46:34.510
Gyuri: And I want to use this as the… this… I use this…

768
01:46:34.780 --> 01:46:52.949
Gyuri: than to create… anybody can create their own private Minecraft or their own thing, not in here, in somewhere else, and through IPFS, you should be able to share it. So the whole point is to be asynchronous, and you should be able to change it and everything, but this is the…

769
01:46:52.950 --> 01:46:56.750
Gyuri: This is a way to get off the ground, okay?

770
01:46:57.090 --> 01:47:10.439
Gyuri: And if you… if you ever… and I'm gonna put in a link, link tomorrow, which will enable anybody who is on this page, click on that link, and should be able to real-time communicate screen share like Zoom.

771
01:47:10.800 --> 01:47:12.030
Gyuri: Viratsu.

772
01:47:12.270 --> 01:47:19.610
Gyuri: That's also… that's already in the work, and then I… I will put in links which… which show you how to… how you can,

773
01:47:19.610 --> 01:47:36.409
Gyuri: how you can archive all your searches, archive all the pages that you care about, and then annotation. Anyhow, so there's a space here that we can use, and I'm glad that it actually works, so please, please have a look at…

774
01:47:36.530 --> 01:47:38.129
Gyuri: do things there, okay?

775
01:47:38.130 --> 01:47:38.870
Chris Cook: I'm gonna

776
01:47:39.780 --> 01:47:47.229
Chris Cook: Sorry to interrupt, I'm going to have to jump, guys, but pleasure to meet you all, and no doubt we'll convene again in a couple of weeks.

777
01:47:47.400 --> 01:47:48.640
An_Maonaigh: Two weeks, I think.

778
01:47:48.640 --> 01:47:50.340
Chris Cook: Rather than manana. Okay.

779
01:47:50.340 --> 01:47:53.530
An_Maonaigh: Salah manana, and abundami to you.

780
01:47:55.410 --> 01:47:56.810
Chris Cook: But.

781
01:47:56.940 --> 01:47:57.660
An_Maonaigh: Thanks, bro.

782
01:47:57.660 --> 01:47:58.290
Gyuri: Why not?

783
01:47:58.290 --> 01:47:58.790
teunvansambeek: Okay.

784
01:48:00.300 --> 01:48:02.020
An_Maonaigh: Okay, shall we check out?

785
01:48:03.360 --> 01:48:03.810
Gyuri: Yeah.

786
01:48:03.810 --> 01:48:05.550
An_Maonaigh: Unless anybody wants to stay.

787
01:48:11.010 --> 01:48:17.490
teunvansambeek: If I want to know more about that crypt path, can I contact somebody, or how do we contact.

788
01:48:17.490 --> 01:48:32.199
Gyuri: Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's, it's actually, actually, yes, you, please, you, you're welcome, I, I, I, I will keep this open, or I'm using crypto all the time, so within an hour or so, any, any… it will notify me that you updated it.

789
01:48:32.510 --> 01:48:33.140
Gyuri: Okay.

790
01:48:33.140 --> 01:48:33.870
teunvansambeek: Okay.

791
01:48:34.100 --> 01:48:38.899
teunvansambeek: So we can also communicate… communicate through this… this link, sort of.

792
01:48:39.150 --> 01:48:40.760
Gyuri: That's the… that's the whole point.

793
01:48:40.840 --> 01:48:58.320
Gyuri: You just, you just put a… put, put a… put… put a section in there and say, hello, this is me. You, you, I, oh, I see you there, yeah, okay. So please, please, please make use of it. And if you've got any questions, I'm around, I'm trying to train myself to be interruptible.

794
01:48:58.320 --> 01:49:13.160
Gyuri: Because I, I really suffered from, from not, not, not, not, not tolerating interrupts, and suffering from interrupts by changing my, my way, and so I, I, I relish on interrupts from anybody, okay?

795
01:49:13.160 --> 01:49:14.040
teunvansambeek: Okay.

796
01:49:14.040 --> 01:49:20.370
An_Maonaigh: And I just want to honor that, it means we don't have to email you, you don't have to put your email address…

797
01:49:20.370 --> 01:49:21.150
Gyuri: That's the thing.

798
01:49:21.150 --> 01:49:22.880
An_Maonaigh: Connect to EncryptPad.

799
01:49:22.880 --> 01:49:27.929
Gyuri: That's it. The whole point of the IndieWeb is to forget about email.

800
01:49:27.930 --> 01:49:28.640
An_Maonaigh: Yeah.

801
01:49:28.640 --> 01:49:30.419
Gyuri: Edge your own contact space.

802
01:49:30.420 --> 01:49:30.820
An_Maonaigh: muted.

803
01:49:30.820 --> 01:49:31.350
Gyuri: Yes.

804
01:49:31.350 --> 01:49:32.980
An_Maonaigh: Yeah, love it.

805
01:49:34.700 --> 01:49:52.499
An_Maonaigh: Okay, so, blessings to us all for being here, those that were here, those that were supposed to be here, and are not. We bless them too. And we bless the ones who will come next time, and who were never here. And one of the things that I wrote down…

806
01:49:52.620 --> 01:49:59.309
An_Maonaigh: Particularly when you were speaking juries, and it blew my own mind. You said.

807
01:50:00.290 --> 01:50:10.980
An_Maonaigh: We have to be able to connect with centralized, and we have to be able to connect with decentralized, and then I drew a circle between them, and I said, you have to do both.

808
01:50:11.310 --> 01:50:27.129
An_Maonaigh: But then what I also did is I flipped the top one, and I said, you have to be able to do none as well. So, no, I don't want to play in your crypt pad. And that's the beauty of the dialogue.

809
01:50:27.130 --> 01:50:28.529
Gyuri: Thank you very much, yeah.

810
01:50:28.530 --> 01:50:39.400
An_Maonaigh: So, blessings to us all. I'm actually very excited and very grateful. There is an abundance here of time and energy and space and expertise.

811
01:50:39.720 --> 01:50:47.799
An_Maonaigh: And, I'm feeling very grateful to have been part of the convening, so I'm out with that. Blessings to us all.

812
01:50:48.120 --> 01:50:50.229
An_Maonaigh: Curie, Josh, Tune?

813
01:50:50.350 --> 01:50:51.370
An_Maonaigh: Check out.

814
01:50:52.330 --> 01:50:53.170
teunvansambeek: It's okay.

815
01:50:53.440 --> 01:50:54.660
teunvansambeek: We'll see you soon.

816
01:50:55.000 --> 01:50:55.500
teunvansambeek: Fair enough.

817
01:50:55.500 --> 01:51:01.850
Gyuri: I feel the same way. It's amazing. It's been an amazing call.

818
01:51:02.030 --> 01:51:12.049
Gyuri: Thank you, Tim, and Josh, and and Chris, was it Chris? I got trouble with new names, but yeah, I mean, he…

819
01:51:12.320 --> 01:51:22.010
Gyuri: it really is, is, is, is taking shape. We really need to, need to, need to have this, yeah. So thank… thank you.

820
01:51:22.840 --> 01:51:26.549
Gyuri: Thank you, Paul, for… For arranging it.

821
01:51:26.870 --> 01:51:31.240
teunvansambeek: Thank you, Josh, for inviting me to this group. It's amazing. Thank you.

822
01:51:31.590 --> 01:51:37.000
Josh Sidman: Yeah, as my checkout, I want to say that I'm already…

823
01:51:37.190 --> 01:51:51.930
Josh Sidman: chafing at the every two weeks, format, and I'm hoping that we can move beyond that as soon as possible, because I don't want to wait two weeks to continue this conversation.

824
01:51:52.280 --> 01:52:04.179
Josh Sidman: And I think that what we're doing is creating an architecture where that… where we… where we overcome that, that limitation. So, I'm excited.

825
01:52:04.330 --> 01:52:15.680
Josh Sidman: For this conversation not only to continue, but to gain momentum through, through overcoming Existing technical limitations.

826
01:52:17.430 --> 01:52:20.829
teunvansambeek: Yeah, I'm also… Codettes, you know.

827
01:52:20.830 --> 01:52:22.290
Gyuri: And the lave out on that.

828
01:52:22.290 --> 01:52:23.089
teunvansambeek: It's very important.

829
01:52:23.090 --> 01:52:23.940
Gyuri: noticing.

830
01:52:24.000 --> 01:52:31.589
Gyuri: we are already on the same page, if you want to, so if you have a… async, you can check that page, and I will put

831
01:52:31.650 --> 01:52:49.350
Gyuri: put all the work I'm gonna do with this, this here, and you… you should be… and you should be able to look at it, and have a conversation. That's your point. The important thing is not enough to be able to share your work. You should be able to share the process itself.

832
01:52:49.350 --> 01:52:50.289
An_Maonaigh: Yeah, beautiful.

833
01:52:50.290 --> 01:52:51.320
Gyuri: fancy work.

834
01:52:51.860 --> 01:52:56.530
An_Maonaigh: So, Gary, I will put the Zoom link into the Crypt Pad.

835
01:52:56.710 --> 01:52:58.419
Gyuri: Yes, yes, yes, please.

836
01:52:58.420 --> 01:53:03.429
An_Maonaigh: Yeah, and Camir, is .4… is that France? Is that a French URL? FR?

837
01:53:03.430 --> 01:53:21.919
Gyuri: It's a French… the developers… it's… they host it in France. Okay. But please support them on Open Collective. I do that, and if you buy… buy your own account, I think that supports them, and I really like them. I really support them.

838
01:53:22.780 --> 01:53:36.989
An_Maonaigh: So, it seems to me we are actually living what we are dreaming into. We're now all on the same page. Cryptac.org, that's beautiful. So, I've put all the resources there.

839
01:53:36.990 --> 01:53:53.570
An_Maonaigh: And as you say, I have 3 channels working when we're connecting. So I have my email when we're connecting, I have my Zoom when we're connecting, and I have my WhatsApp. So to bring it all back into the one page, and I really like that as the message jury.

840
01:53:54.050 --> 01:53:56.010
An_Maonaigh: We're all on the one page.

841
01:53:57.460 --> 01:53:59.919
An_Maonaigh: For those that want to be there.

842
01:53:59.920 --> 01:54:00.680
Gyuri: That's it.

843
01:54:00.680 --> 01:54:01.230
An_Maonaigh: Thank you.

844
01:54:01.230 --> 01:54:02.329
Gyuri: Thank you very much.

845
01:54:02.330 --> 01:54:03.559
An_Maonaigh: Alright, bless him, brother.

846
01:54:03.860 --> 01:54:04.950
Gyuri: Yeah, bye-bye.

847
01:54:04.950 --> 01:54:05.450
teunvansambeek: Next time.

848
01:54:05.780 --> 01:54:07.500
An_Maonaigh: Okay, see you later.

849
01:54:13.500 --> 01:54:15.610
Gyuri: Thank you very much, it was great, yeah.

850
01:54:15.610 --> 01:54:20.110
An_Maonaigh: Yeah, so much fun, yeah. I do want to save the chat, though. Where do I save the chat?

851
01:54:20.110 --> 01:54:32.349
Gyuri: please say, oh, oh, oh, and well, you send it to me, because you really… I don't think you can upload anything to it, unless… you may even be able to… yes, you should be able to upload it.

852
01:54:32.500 --> 01:54:50.069
Gyuri: Upload it into… no, no, okay, send it to me, I upload it then, but the best thing is to get an account, and you should be okay. You should be able to really… it's a drive as well, think about this. It's Google Drive equivalent, but it's encrypted and secure and all that stuff.

853
01:54:50.790 --> 01:54:53.590
Gyuri: But somehow you sent it to me, yeah, okay.

854
01:54:53.910 --> 01:55:04.079
An_Maonaigh: She does zero… April 22… 2026. You know, I just want to make sure I'm saving the chat.

855
01:55:05.040 --> 01:55:05.440
Gyuri: Yes, sir?

856
01:55:05.440 --> 01:55:09.399
An_Maonaigh: I'll get it, yeah, I'll get it, Chad. Alright, brother.

857
01:55:09.950 --> 01:55:15.020
An_Maonaigh: Okay, okay. So, you know, after, after 18 months…

858
01:55:15.020 --> 01:55:15.730
Gyuri: reckon.

859
01:55:15.730 --> 01:55:17.039
An_Maonaigh: Go on, yeah?

860
01:55:17.780 --> 01:55:24.629
Gyuri: No, I just want to make sure that I take… no, I want to have a screenshot of you and me here.

861
01:55:25.040 --> 01:55:26.520
Gyuri: For the scrapbook.

862
01:55:29.820 --> 01:55:30.430
Gyuri: Yeah.

863
01:55:31.560 --> 01:55:32.500
Gyuri: Okay.

864
01:55:33.520 --> 01:55:39.980
Gyuri: I put it in, they put it in the document, because that's where I am. Can you check the document before you go? There you are.

865
01:55:39.980 --> 01:55:43.019
An_Maonaigh: Yeah. Where do I… where do I go? Back into Moon.

866
01:55:43.020 --> 01:55:46.609
Gyuri: Go, go, say, oh, please, save that link.

867
01:55:47.050 --> 01:55:49.440
Gyuri: That creep that we're just seeing? Yeah.

868
01:55:49.610 --> 01:55:51.870
An_Maonaigh: Yeah, I'm here on the link, yeah, let me refresh it.

869
01:55:52.640 --> 01:55:59.599
Gyuri: Yeah, yeah, yeah, refresh it, yeah. You're not logged, you're not in here. Oh, yes, you're there, yes, you're there. Now you can see.

870
01:55:59.600 --> 01:56:00.680
An_Maonaigh: I'm not plugged in.

871
01:56:01.460 --> 01:56:02.360
An_Maonaigh: Hold on.

872
01:56:04.440 --> 01:56:07.100
An_Maonaigh: Yeah, it's wanting me to sign up, yeah?

873
01:56:07.650 --> 01:56:09.140
Gyuri: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

874
01:56:10.120 --> 01:56:10.830
An_Maonaigh: Let me see if I can…

875
01:56:10.830 --> 01:56:11.160
Gyuri: Okay.

876
01:56:11.160 --> 01:56:14.019
An_Maonaigh: I don't know anything. Hold on a sec, yeah, I have to sign up, yeah.

877
01:56:14.020 --> 01:56:16.659
Gyuri: Okay. Yeah, okay, okay, see you.

878
01:56:16.660 --> 01:56:18.000
An_Maonaigh: Alright, brother, bless you.

879
01:56:18.000 --> 01:56:18.820
Gyuri: Thank you.

880
01:56:18.820 --> 01:56:19.450
An_Maonaigh: Be it.